The Si's power figures are underrated

Rich19Si

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I said awhile ago I saw a dyno chart that was putting WHP to the ground at the BHP rates offered by Honda. I coudn't find the data, but no one seems to know. I'm pretty sure it's true - the BHP rating is actually at the wheels.

Reason? Insurance.
Don't you think Honda would have made money if they advertised a higher HP? My car was making 185whp stock. Si's make 205bhp, 185sh WHP.
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Trap speed lets us know how much power a car is making. ET is just how well you are putting the power down.

98.3 MPH traps is on par with tuned cars. Well, base maps at least.
98 mph is 100% NOT factory map. Period. That MPH would need close to 220 wheel to be achieved.
 

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Reasonable theory, though I really wish I had a better grasp of how something like HP rating impacts my insurance. I've never really understood how insurance companies calculate premiums. I get that they consider a number of driver factors: age, gender, accident history, etcetera...and certain aspects of the particular vehicle as well: safety ratings, likelihood of theft, body style (coupe vs sedan), color, among others. But how does HP actually impact the calculus? If the Si had been rated at, say, 215 bhp instead of 205 - would that translate to a noticeable premium bump? Is there a secret "power table" with discrete tiers for different ratings? If the difference in HP ratings only translated to a difference of a few bucks, I'm not sure why Honda would even care.

Do we have any insurance experts in here? If so, care to share a peek behind the curtain?
Insurance companies are in it to make profits, that's the bottom line. The more HP, the more likely you end up driving faster, racing, getting tickets, and ending up in a ditch or pole. Turn off traction control on a car with a lot of power (which a lot of people do), and suddenly on a FWD you are in understeer heaven, and for a RWD your rear is misbehaving and you suddenly find yourself spun around in traffic. Been there, done that!

BTW, I'm not the Insurance company expert you were asking for!
 

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Insurance companies are in it to make profits, that's the bottom line. The more HP, the more likely you end up driving faster, racing, getting tickets, and ending up in a ditch or pole. Turn off traction control on a car with a lot of power (which a lot of people do), and suddenly on a FWD you are in understeer heaven, and for a RWD your rear is misbehaving and you suddenly find yourself spun around in traffic. Been there, done that!

BTW, I'm not the Insurance company expert you were asking for!
Insurance companies are in it to make profits, that's the bottom line. T
thats very true
 

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It’s true to a degree I think. I mean if it was rated 75 more HP it may make a difference. But I went from an 18 Sport to a 20 Si and my insurance actually went down.
 


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98 mph is 100% NOT factory map. Period. That MPH would need close to 220 wheel to be achieved.
So then what does trapping 96 MPH mean for the wheel Horsepower? Because the Si has been shown to trap 96mph by multiple publications. Definitely not 185whp as others have claimed. 185whp should trap 88-92mph, and the Si consistently traps around 94-98 mph. Its easy to believe that an Si can trap 98mph if 96mph has been proven over and over again, it's not that big of a jump. heck I've even shown you an instance of the Si trapping 98mph stock(Alex on Autos). So why is it so hard for you doubters to believe that the Si is underrated?
 

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So then what does trapping 96 MPH mean for the wheel Horsepower? Because the Si has been shown to trap 96mph by multiple publications. Definitely not 185whp as others have claimed. 185whp should trap 88-92mph, and the Si consistently traps around 94-98 mph. Its easy to believe that an Si can trap 98mph if 96mph has been proven over and over again, it's not that big of a jump. heck I've even shown you an instance of the Si trapping 98mph stock(Alex on Autos). So why is it so hard for you doubters to believe that the Si is underrated?
The way you calculate is like this:

Horsepower= Weight x (Speed over X)3 where x is the speed you are traveling

Below is an example of a car that weighs 2900 LBS hitting a trap speed of 98 MPH

Honda Civic 10th gen The Si's power figures are underrated HP trap speed.JPG
 
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No doubt in my mind that both versions of the 1.5T are underrated. Matter of fact, the non-Si's power was substantially understated by Honda. A car that actually only had 174hp/162tq doesn't produce numbers like this:

From C&D's test of a 2016 Civic EX-L coupe...

Honda Civic 10th gen The Si's power figures are underrated IMG_20200320_141056
 

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So then what does trapping 96 MPH mean for the wheel Horsepower? Because the Si has been shown to trap 96mph by multiple publications. Definitely not 185whp as others have claimed. 185whp should trap 88-92mph, and the Si consistently traps around 94-98 mph. Its easy to believe that an Si can trap 98mph if 96mph has been proven over and over again, it's not that big of a jump. heck I've even shown you an instance of the Si trapping 98mph stock(Alex on Autos). So why is it so hard for you doubters to believe that the Si is underrated?
Buddy I am in your corner. They feel stronger than the heartbreak numbers would suggest. Your bone stock si with average driving would be doing well at 92mph. I can tell you from experience. My 18 si bone stock would trap 92mph consistently regardless of what happened during the rest of the pass. On my personal tune it trapped 98. Vits custom tunes would trap 98ish. 100-102mph is essentially the ceiling with a pump gas 93 octane mild bolt on car with God himself tuning it.

94-96 is a bit above average and I would not say its at all common.

That dude that ran the 14.5 at 98 allegedly bone stock would have had to been the perfect hail mary pass with a tail wind.
Far from normal and very questionable..

I do still agree with you that the rating seems to be around a "to the tire" figure.

There are times my car now gets the perfect hit and feels like a 13 second car. I have a high threshold for what I can consider a strong pull and I have had some 3rd-5th gear rips that the car is fucking SAILING.

I also have outran known faster cars in my day to day so I feel ya buddy!

The reality is when looking at the car from a standstill timed measure its deceptively slower than how the cars run. The car is not the deception. The weight people are putting into a 10-15 hp variance (as measured on dynos) along with the 0-60 times AND the quarter times are just setting yourself up for disappointment. Take yours to the track. Take a picture of the slip and post for further discussion.

You will figure it out.
 

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No doubt in my mind that both versions of the 1.5T are underrated. Matter of fact, the non-Si's power was substantially understated by Honda. A car that actually only had 174hp/162tq doesn't produce numbers like this:

From C&D's test of a 2016 Civic EX-L coupe...

IMG_20200320_141056.jpg
So it has 195 HP if you calculate its weight and trap speed
 


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Buddy I am in your corner. They feel stronger than the heartbreak numbers would suggest. Your bone stock si with average driving would be doing well at 92mph. I can tell you from experience. My 18 si bone stock would trap 92mph consistently regardless of what happened during the rest of the pass. On my personal tune it trapped 98. Vits custom tunes would trap 98ish. 100-102mph is essentially the ceiling with a pump gas 93 octane mild bolt on car with God himself tuning it.

94-96 is a bit above average and I would not say its at all common.

That dude that ran the 14.5 at 98 allegedly bone stock would have had to been the perfect hail mary pass with a tail wind.
Far from normal and very questionable..

I do still agree with you that the rating seems to be around a "to the tire" figure.

There are times my car now gets the perfect hit and feels like a 13 second car. I have a high threshold for what I can consider a strong pull and I have had some 3rd-5th gear rips that the car is fucking SAILING.

I also have outran known faster cars in my day to day so I feel ya buddy!

The reality is when looking at the car from a standstill timed measure its deceptively slower than how the cars run. The car is not the deception. The weight people are putting into a 10-15 hp variance (as measured on dynos) along with the 0-60 times AND the quarter times are just setting yourself up for disappointment. Take yours to the track. Take a picture of the slip and post for further discussion.

You will figure it out.
I would bet that the Si's numbers are not as indicative of its true performance because of its short gearing which leaves too much on the table depending on driver's skills.

I can see how one driver can finish the quater mile at 14.5/14.6 secs and another at 15.0 secs on the same day on the same track no matter how perfect he/her shifts. For example, Everyday Driver did a head to head of the Veloster N, GTI, and Si and said that the Si and GTI felt the same in acceleration during the performance portion of the test even though the Si was .4 seconds slower (6.4 secs vs 6.8 secs in their testing), they said it was due to the second shift or the Si would have matched the GTI to 60.

How could a 185whp car match a 220bhp car to 60? I have also driven a GTI, I walked into that dealership with every intention of being blown away based on the incredible reviews it gets from car journalists, and honestly I walked away disappointed. Manual to manual, if I was a passenger and blindfolded, I would not be able to differentiate one from the other from the seat of my pants acceleration feel.
 

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I would bet that the Si's numbers are not as indicative of its true performance because of its short gearing which leaves too much on the table depending on driver's skills.

I can see how one driver can finish the quater mile at 14.5/14.6 secs and another at 15.0 secs on the same day on the same track no matter how perfect he/her shifts. For example, Everyday Driver did a head to head of the Veloster N, GTI, and Si and said that the Si and GTI felt the same in acceleration during the performance portion of the test even though the Si was .4 seconds slower (6.4 secs vs 6.8 secs in their testing), they said it was due to the second shift or the Si would have matched the GTI to 60.

How could a 185whp car match a 220bhp car to 60? I have also driven a GTI, I walked into that dealership with every intention of being blown away based on the incredible reviews it gets from car journalists, and honestly I walked away disappointed. Manual to manual, if I was a passenger and blindfolded, I would not be able to differentiate one from the other from the seat of my pants acceleration feel.
I wouldn't say it's the gearing, it's more the fuel cutoff in 1st and 2nd gears which keeps it around 6.5 to 6.3 0 to 60. Turn it off and you could probably get into the upper 5 seconds. That being said, it's something I wouldn't mess with, because it's probably is protecting the engine from valve float. On my IS350, valve float happens around 7200 RPM
 

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You're forgetting the weight of the driver. You need to subtract probably 10-15 HP, depending on his weight.
Yes, that's correct, thanks for factoring that in
 

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You're forgetting the weight of the driver. You need to subtract probably 10-15 HP, depending on his weight.
Hmmm. Maybe I suck at math but explain this. Let's say Amirza was basing the 195 hp number on a 95 mph trap speed and a 2900 pound car. If you then calculate the same 95 mph trap speed with 3100 pounds of weight (assuming a 200 pound driver)... wouldn't it need more hp to propel the car to that same trap speed?
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