Convince me to buy or not buy 2019 CTR. Am I making a dumb decision?

CivilciviC · Feb 28, 2020

tinyman392 said:
C&D use Forbes as a source which is basing their stuff based on rumors. C&D estimates the pricing in the mid-30k region while Forbes says a sub-50k region (a nearly 10k difference in how they estimate the pricing will go). That being said, everything is a rumor for now. Though the STI will need at least 375-ish HP to be on the CTR's level (WHP-wise). Keep in mind that with an AWD platform, it's not uncommon to see 20% (or higher) powertrain loss vs 10% and 15% from FF and FR platforms, respectively. So that 375 HP number would result in a car with 300WHP while the 400HP model would have about 320WHP. The 415 (Mercedes) results in an expected 330WHP. It's possible it'll be underrated from factory like how the Type R most likely is (since it's making more power than expected from a 10% powertrain loss at the wheels).

That being said, I'd love a 400+HP STI; it needs 375 to be competitive or at least 350 to match the RS.

I'm not entirely sure how you're working your numbers, but it seems wrong. 295whp for FWD is not equivalent to 295whp for AWD. There's no doubt the AWD version would blow the doors off the FWD version, as far as acceleration is concerned.

And also, even if the STi came with "only" 350hp, you seriously think it's still not competitive and people won't be scooping them up like crazy? People are still buying a completely outdated STi, paying near zero attention to which hot hatch/sedan is faster. Most people do not track cars. They simply don't care about a dick swinging competition. They care about having a sporty and fun car, which the STi delivers, even at 300hp.

And the same people comparing numbers and/or tracking their cars are also generally modding them- those baseline numbers for stock cars completely go out the window.

tinyman392 · Feb 28, 2020

CivilciviC said:
I'm not entirely sure how you're working your numbers, but it seems wrong. 295whp for FWD is not equivalent to 295whp for AWD. There's no doubt the AWD version would blow the doors off the FWD version, as far as acceleration is concerned.

And also, even if the STi came with "only" 350hp, you seriously think it's still not competitive and people won't be scooping them up like crazy? People are still buying a completely outdated STi, paying near zero attention to which hot hatch/sedan is faster. Most people do not track cars. They simply don't care about a dick swinging competition. They care about having a sporty and fun car, which the STi delivers, even at 300hp.

And the same people comparing numbers and/or tracking their cars are also generally modding them- those baseline numbers for stock cars completely go out the window.

Focus RS would be an absolutely easy example of an AWD vehicle with 350 HP. Compare it to an FF setup with 300 HP from a roll and see what happens (Type R vs RS from a roll, Type R wins). Current generation STI is like 310 HP, gets massacred by FF layouts with the same power.

I stand by what I say. Most FF and MR drivetrains lose 10% of their crank power, FR lose 15%, and AWD lose upwards of 20% (or higher).

If you compute (expected) WHP to weight ratios of the above cars (using the percent losses above) you’ll see real world examples of this in action. Focus RS and Type R is an easy example with the Type R having a higher power to weight ratio and thus pulling away from a roll pretty easily. Then with the STI you don’t even need a roll (but roll makes it easily more decisive).

Main source for the power train loss is Engineering Explained. He has a pretty good video describing how and why.

Convince me to buy or not buy 2019 CTR. Am I making a dumb decision?

CivilciviC

Senior Member

tinyman392

Senior Member

Similar threads