The Infamous 2nd Gear Crunch

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So our 2018 started having intermittent issues engaging second gear as early at ~800 miles. The vehicle is at roughly 5000 miles now, and since we were pulling the transmission anyways to install an OSGiken LSD, we decided to take a closer look at what was going on.

The magnet was surprisingly filthy for 5000 miles, and there was a decent amount of brass glitter hanging out down by the oil pump.
Honda Civic 10th gen The Infamous 2nd Gear Crunch wqupkepl

Honda Civic 10th gen The Infamous 2nd Gear Crunch WdxOGVCl

But the synchros looked very good.
Honda Civic 10th gen The Infamous 2nd Gear Crunch YElKNQql

It seems the slider is the real culprit here, the majority of the teeth where chewed right up. Perhaps there is a bad tolerance or quality control issues on the slider that is the root cause of many of the reported issues. Who else has taken apart and verified the cause of their issue? Forgive me for not reading through all 100 pages
Honda Civic 10th gen The Infamous 2nd Gear Crunch T9gwmxJl
 

jasonjm

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So our 2018 started having intermittent issues engaging second gear as early at ~800 miles. The vehicle is at roughly 5000 miles now, and since we were pulling the transmission anyways to install an OSGiken LSD, we decided to take a closer look at what was going on.

The magnet was surprisingly filthy for 5000 miles, and there was a decent amount of brass glitter hanging out down by the oil pump.
wqupkepl.jpg

WdxOGVCl.jpg

But the synchros looked very good.
YElKNQql.jpg

It seems the slider is the real culprit here, the majority of the teeth where chewed right up. Perhaps there is a bad tolerance or quality control issues on the slider that is the root cause of many of the reported issues. Who else has taken apart and verified the cause of their issue? Forgive me for not reading through all 100 pages
T9gwmxJl.jpg
I suspected as much, but no one cares: https://www.civicx.com/threads/type-r-tranny-issues-still.28440/page-13#post-494117

From said linked post:

"
Are you grinding any gears?

The teeth as you grind away could prevent the slider from going into the next gear. That will then lock you out.

I know people have said they're different problems - buuuut not entirely.

We need to have these transmissions taken out and examined.

A good transmission engineer would be able to check it out.

In general all these problems could be the gear set is just shit material or material that is not strong enough to withstand the current issues across all the components (as I had pointed out several posts earlier).

I also wonder how the tolerance is across gear set suppliers, what is the measured backlash?
"
 

8877

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It seems the slider is the real culprit here, the majority of the teeth where chewed right up. Perhaps there is a bad tolerance or quality control issues on the slider that is the root cause of many of the reported issues.
I'm familiar with gearbox revisions. The synchro hub/sleeve is just the victim of excessive grinding, not the cause itself. The synchro not being able to work properly or the mainshaft not being able to spin freely are possible causes. I still point at the clutch or the clutch hydraulics. The teeth on the corresponding gear will look similar. If the teeth of both are rounded off you have to change the hub/sleeve and the 2nd gear.
The 'dirt' on the magnet is grinded off material.
 

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I'm familiar with gearbox revisions. The synchro hub/sleeve is just the victim of excessive grinding, not the cause itself. The synchro not being able to work properly or the mainshaft not being able to spin freely are possible causes. I still point at the clutch or the clutch hydraulics. The teeth on the corresponding gear will look similar. If the teeth of both are rounded off you have to change the hub/sleeve and the 2nd gear.
The 'dirt' on the magnet is grinded off material.
What issues you think with the clutch mechanics?
 

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I'm familiar with gearbox revisions. The synchro hub/sleeve is just the victim of excessive grinding, not the cause itself. The synchro not being able to work properly or the mainshaft not being able to spin freely are possible causes. I still point at the clutch or the clutch hydraulics. The teeth on the corresponding gear will look similar. If the teeth of both are rounded off you have to change the hub/sleeve and the 2nd gear.
The 'dirt' on the magnet is grinded off material.
If it where the clutch hydraulics, why is it only a problem with second gear shifts? Seems like the other gears would be problematic as well.
 


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What issues you think with the clutch mechanics?
Not sure but a slightly dragging clutch can be enough to prevent the mainshaft from spinning freely.

If it where the clutch hydraulics, why is it only a problem with second gear shifts? Seems like the other gears would be problematic as well.
The jump from 1st to 2nd is the biggest in that gearbox. So it will show first in 2nd gear from 1st to 2nd, not from 3rd to 2nd (but maybe later as well with the parts getting damaged by grinding as seen in the pictures).
If something is dragging or preventing the mainshaft from spinning freely the other gears will follow sooner or later. 3rd might be the next one. If people tend to skip gears any other gear can follow too. Never ever do this.
Honda did other gearboxes with large jumps from 1st to 2nd like in the 1st NSX. WOT 8000 rpm in 1st ends with 4400 rpm in 2nd, so they know how to design it. Same in the S2000.

The other reason could be cost-cutting resulting in bad quality, well I don't believe it so far. Too many people had success with changing or modifying the clutch hydraulics on the Type R.

Good luck!
 
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I'm familiar with gearbox revisions. The synchro hub/sleeve is just the victim of excessive grinding, not the cause itself. The synchro not being able to work properly or the mainshaft not being able to spin freely are possible causes. I still point at the clutch or the clutch hydraulics. The teeth on the corresponding gear will look similar. If the teeth of both are rounded off you have to change the hub/sleeve and the 2nd gear.
The 'dirt' on the magnet is grinded off material.
If the hub and slider are "just the victim", why do the syncho and gear teeth itself look fine? In your scenario one or both should also show more wear. The only damage is on the slider

Also, if the teeth on anything are rounded off, you will have to replace the whole gearset. You cannot buy the sliders, hub, or synchros separate for second gear. P/N 23432-5DE-305
 

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If the hub and slider are "just the victim", why do the syncho and gear teeth itself look fine? In your scenario one or both should also show more wear. The only damage is on the slider
This is NOT possible. The sleeve does not destroy itself without having a counterpart on the gear.
Usually in the case of grinding over a long time you'll see a damaged sleeve, a damaged gear and a synchro not biting anymore on the gear.
Illustration:

Also, if the teeth on anything are rounded off, you will have to replace the whole gearset. You cannot buy the sliders, hub, or synchros separate for second gear. P/N 23432-5DE-305
Yes, that's true for all Hondas MT. I did not say you can buy them separately from Honda. If you have to replace a single part of the gearset you have to replace or buy the whole gearset but it usually makes sense. I know they are expensive...but that's just the way it is.
 
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This is NOT possible. The sleeve does not destroy itself without having a counterpart on the gear.
Usually in the case of grinding over a long time you'll see a damaged sleeve, a damaged gear and a synchro not biting anymore on the gear.
Well of course it has to wear against something. I just find it surprising to see the slider taking the brunt of the wear, and not the brass. The gearset has already been swapped out, gotta pay to play. Just disappointing for under 5000 miles.
 

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Well of course it has to wear against something. I just find it surprising to see the slider taking the brunt of the wear, and not the brass. The gearset has already been swapped out, gotta pay to play. Just disappointing for under 5000 miles.
In most cases the teeths of the sleeve are worn by about the same degree as its counterpart on the gear. I've not seen rounded off brass teeths on the synchro. This means that the sleeve already successfully went over the synchro teeth but for some reason the synchro is not able to calm things down before the sleeve finally goes on the gear -> grinding. All possible causes have been mentioned above.
 


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Two things.

1. It was easy to miss but in Motor Trend's "Honda Civic Type R vs. Civic Si" article (link), it says the following:



They don't go into more detail than that, but it's the first reference I've seen in professional reviews about the grinds. If the Si they tested was new, then their long-term Type R had ~16K miles on it at the time of writing.

2. Has anyone who's adjusted their CMC rod to reduce clutch pedal free-play found that idle coasting in first gear causes more lurching than before the adjustment? The car was much more jerky the last few times I've hit stop-and-go traffic and I wonder if it has anything to do with the adjustment.
Car & Driver has also noted issues with 2nd gear on their long term Type R;

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a28115797/2019-honda-civic-type-r-reliability-maintenance/


It also feels as if the second-gear synchro might be starting to resist our most aggressive advances; we're going to continue to monitor that as we carefully choose a path along our crumbling roads.
 

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I resolved the grinding and I posted on how to do it back at this post: https://www.civicx.com/threads/the-infamous-2nd-gear-crunch.12890/page-89#post-657296

I've put another 7k on the car since this an haven't experienced a gind since. I think if you ignore it and just let it grind you'll cause further damage, which is what we're seeing in the more recent posts. This is for sure a Honda engineering problem, but they'll never admit it.
 

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I resolved the grinding and I posted on how to do it back at this post: https://www.civicx.com/threads/the-infamous-2nd-gear-crunch.12890/page-89#post-657296

I've put another 7k on the car since this an haven't experienced a gind since. I think if you ignore it and just let it grind you'll cause further damage, which is what we're seeing in the more recent posts. This is for sure a Honda engineering problem, but they'll never admit it.
I think you may be on to something with the sloppy bushings. I replaced the cable bushings on mine and it certainly helped. But I still get some gear nibbling when downshifting from 3-2. If I pull the shifter hard to the left when making this downshift from 3rd to 2nd it doesn't happen. This leads me to believe the slop is in the shifter/bushings. Did you experience this nibbling when downshifting to 2nd? I'm considering buying the hybrid racing shifter. Anybody know if the hybrid shifter comes with solid bushings?

I have never had a grind when shifting from 1st to 2nd but again I pull the shifter toward the left and down and I shift slow knowing the potential issue exists.
 

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I brought a modified clutch master cylinder from K20z3allmotorftw also known as naperformanceftw.com. Had it installed and did not make shifting any better, smoother or stop second gear grind. It actually made matters worst. So I ask for any kind of refund and the answer was no. So be aware if you do purchase one there isn’t a refund policy.
 

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I brought a modified clutch master cylinder from K20z3allmotorftw also known as naperformanceftw.com. Had it installed and did not make shifting any better, smoother or stop second gear grind. It actually made matters worst. So I ask for any kind of refund and the answer was no. So be aware if you do purchase one there isn’t a refund policy.
I do that mod also (Clutch master cylinder) but if you don't do both ( slave clutch cylinder) won't improve as expected , the bleeding and properly adjust is crucial . If you have the second gear already worn this mod or any mod won't help at all.. At least you should have smooth shifting in other gears, but again you need to do both master and slave.
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