Fuel/Oil Dilution Issue Overblown ?

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rraayy3

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Got a letter for the update/recall

Perfect timing as I’m due B1 maintenance... I’ll report any noticeable differences
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Severedninja

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It's a Honda. I see so much panic in this forum about direct injection carbon, CVT reliability speculation, the fact that turbochargers are historically unreliable, and oil dilution. I think people sometimes underestimate Honda and just want to find things to worry about, either so they can find some way to prevent the perceived issue, or just because they're naturally worriers, or maybe they're pessimistic or dramatic.

For example, 1.) The DI thing has been expelled many times already; there's never been any known issues with carbon buildup in direct injected Honda engines, because they've taken various steps to alleviate that issue in the engineering of the motors, such as recommending the use of Top Tier fuels with detergents that are known to help prevent carbon buildup, and by spraying a tiny amount of fuel on the valves to "wash" any deposits off before they can bond. 2.) As far as CVTs go, many manufacturers have had issues with CVT reliability, Honda has not, even under extreme conditions and people TRYING to kill them. 'Nuff said. 3.) Turbos have been notoriously unreliable since their inception many, many decades ago. Lots of car manufacturers lately have been slapping turbos on their 4-bangers to make them perform more like a V6, and many (such as Chevy) have had major known issues with the turbos seizing up. Honda has never had any such issues.

Honda has spent their entire lifetime as a company working to build up their reputation as one of the most reliable brands on the road, and they achieved that through extreme R&D that most other manufacturers don't bother doing. They didn't do it by overlooking known issues with CVTs and turbos, just slapping them on all willy-nilly, or overlooking known issues with direct injection and just doing it for the sake of doing it. They achieved their reputation and are able to keep it because they don't put out a product until they've engineered and tested it ad nauseam and are 100% sure that it meets their standards and the expectations of their consumer base. They aren't going to allow a product to be released that jeopardizes the reputation that the company was built on, or fails to meet the quality their customers expect.

In short, it's a Honda, and it will last until you decide you're ready to upgrade to another Honda ;) That's their business model, and that's why most of us drive Hondas. Stop worrying, maintain your car properly, and trust that Honda has never led anyone astray and they aren't about to now.
I really want to believe you but you said "spraying tiny ammounts of fuel on valves to wash away deposits. That simply is not possible in a DI engine. Hence direct injection. The tops of the valves dont see any gas. I don't know where you are getting this?
 

Design

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I really want to believe you but you said "spraying tiny ammounts of fuel on valves to wash away deposits. That simply is not possible in a DI engine. Hence direct injection. The tops of the valves dont see any gas. I don't know where you are getting this?
DI has come a long way since the early designs from BMW, Mercedes and VW. :) I explain it a little more here:
https://www.civicx.com/threads/carbon-buildup-101.16177/page-3#post-388855

In short, Honda reportedly uses valve overlap and piston movement to redirect a portion of the injector spray across the lip of the intake valves, ensuring a tight seal with limited buildup on the neck. They do this between combustion cycles while the exhaust valves are closed and the intake valves open at BDC. As the piston begins to come up, right before the intake valve closes, air/fuel is temporarily directed backwards which then circulates near the lip and top of the valves.

Regardless of this technical approach, the air/oil separator & PCV seem to have reduced recirculation of deposits significantly (compared to TCDI motors from a decade ago). And although the evidence is focused on Honda's earlier NA designs, the approach is reported to be applicable to a broad range of their DI powertrains.

upload_2019-6-8_0-2-55.png


upload_2019-5-29_8-48-57-png.png
 

Severedninja

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DI has come a long way since the early designs from BMW, Mercedes and VW. :) I explain it a little more here:
https://www.civicx.com/threads/carbon-buildup-101.16177/page-3#post-388855

In short, Honda reportedly uses valve overlap and piston movement to redirect a portion of the injector spray across the lip of the intake valves, ensuring a tight seal with limited buildup on the neck. They do this between combustion cycles while the exhaust valves are closed and the intake valves open at BDC. As the piston begins to come up, right before the intake valve closes, air/fuel is temporarily directed backwards which then circulates near the lip and top of the valves.

Regardless of this technical approach, the air/oil separator & PCV seem to have reduced recirculation of deposits significantly (compared to TCDI motors from a decade ago). And although the evidence is focused on Honda's earlier NA designs, the approach is reported to be applicable to a broad range of their DI powertrains.

upload_2019-6-8_0-2-55.png


upload_2019-5-29_8-48-57-png.png
ok thats so cool. great explainantion, and very good to know that I shouldn't have to worry about too much carbon build up. Does this defeat the need of a catch can? Does the injector spray on both the intake and exhaust valve?
 

darkness975

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I think its pretty easy to determine if you meet the risk factors for the dilution issue:

1) Do you live somewhere that is commonly below freezing?
2) Do you frequently allow your car to idle to warm and defrost/defog before driving?
3) Do you commonly make short trips (under 15-20 minutes)?

1 is mostly where you live, but if you park in a heated or underground garage where its never below freezing, that's a mitigating factor

2 is easily remedied by making sure you don't idle it too long. 30-45 seconds for the idle to drop to ~1200 is all you need to wait.

3 can be mitigated by going on longer drives (1 hour +) regularly, such as on the weekends or monthly.
I run the stupid thing because that is what remote start is for and there is no way you can drive off in 30 seconds when the temperature is 5 degrees and the windows are all frosted over.
 


turbo lover

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I run the stupid thing because that is what remote start is for and there is no way you can drive off in 30 seconds when the temperature is 5 degrees and the windows are all frosted over.
I clean the frost off my windows before I start the car.
 

darkness975

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I clean the frost off my windows before I start the car.
Rather not scratch up the windshield.

Most of the time I don't have to drive to work so that helps. But even if I did running it for 5 minutes in the morning is not going to break it, or else every car that does not have a garage would be bricked after a year.
 

Design

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Does this defeat the need of a catch can? Does the injector spray on both the intake and exhaust valve?
Exhaust valves are a one-way flow. Assuming the chamber is doing its job, there should only be exhaust gas. :)

The injector does not spray directly on the valves. It mists to the chamber directly below, but allows for reverse flow under certain conditions (theoretically).
 

BlackKnightSi

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We have half a million powertrains in circulation and almost zero documented cases of "extreme" dilution. In fact, the stalling hasn't even been confirmed to be caused by dilution at all. Overall, the evidence is severely lacking.

Some dilution is to be expected; and the MM factors extreme conditions that could result in a loss of sheer protection. Hence, why some owners get to 15% oil life within 3K.

At this point it's way overblown, IMHO.
"Some dilution" people are having their motors blown quite frequently. Another person just reported on IG that the engine blew. White smoke and oil came out of the tail pipe. We should create a list of people who had this happen to them and go viral.
 

Gruber

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"Some dilution" people are having their motors blown quite frequently. Another person just reported on IG that the engine blew. White smoke and oil came out of the tail pipe. We should create a list of people who had this happen to them and go viral.
"People are having their motors blown quite frequently because of oil dilution" is a False proposition.
 


BlackKnightSi

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"People are having their motors blown quite frequently because of oil dilution" is a False proposition.
Let's do a test with a topic if you think otherwise.

Let's ask the question: Did your motor blow on 10th gen as the result of oil dilution.
 

ulieq

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I use premium Exxon gas, full synthetic oil, and very rarely drive less than 10-15 minutes in order to let the engine/oil warm up. Is the fuel dilution issue overblown based on a few cases or something to seriously worry about?

I absolutely love my hatch sport and plan on having it 5+ years - can't decide if this is an issue to simply monitor and continue doing what I already do or trade the car in [paid in full, owned] and just lease a newer model and avoid the headaches.

Civic Hatch Sport literally is the perfect car for what I'm looking for as a daily - hopefully this isn't that big of an issue. The car does seem "too good to be true".
2021 you'll get hybrids in all the trims, so wait, get a 2.0 or just get a used since its been out for 3 yrs. Buying a new 1.5t in 2020? I would not.
 

Design

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Let's do a test with a topic if you think otherwise.

Let's ask the question: Did your motor blow on 10th gen as the result of oil dilution.
LOL, that's like saying the sky is blue because water is wet.

Anyone can connect two random dots when asked... :D
 

arsh88

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Well 18k miles and my oil smells like diesel fuel again. Taking it to the stealership Friday to bitch and get it changed. If Honda can’t come up with a fix soon I’ll be taking a loss and finding something from Toyota
 

EvildoerTsui

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Well 18k miles and my oil smells like diesel fuel again. Taking it to the stealership Friday to bitch and get it changed. If Honda can’t come up with a fix soon I’ll be taking a loss and finding something from Toyota
Sorry, but I got to ask: Don't tell me you didn't change oil for 18k miles?!?!
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