CVT failure: Details inside

dallasjhawk

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I hear ya dallas. That damn visit to the finance guy has ruin every good showroom floor sales experience I've ever had.

I do want to correct one thing you said for accuracy. "Dealers are trash" isn't totally true. Only 99.3% are trash.;)
ok agreed. I actually really like my dealer and the service department. Im lucky though, might be the relationships Ive built with them. That finance guy from my civic visit, I was like I'm not paying $1 more than what I signed off on with the sales guy, if you really want to sell that warranty make it work, otherwise I'll take the .5% and no warranty. He came back with how about 72 cents more a month. I laughed and said fine, it wasnt a dollar more.
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gtman

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The finance guy when I bought the Civic saw I worked for the same company his sister worked for. He keep talking about that and dropping names in an attempt to make me think he was a "good guy". He got more and more frustrated after each time I said no to some add-on package he tried to get me to sign off on. I won.:cool:
 

turbociv910

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Lets not ignore all the times the dealer shafts people, from sales price, to the add ons, to the finance department to denying warranty for no good reason at all. Yeah, he shouldnt feel bad at all actually.
yeah wth... get them when you can
 

Vic_L

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There’s so much to say about all of this, particularly the part where you literally shafted Honda and you should have been the one to pay for a new tranny. But I am just gonna say, that you can have butter as tires and you wouldn’t need traction control to be on when getting off the line with a CVT.
Sounds like you don’t own a CVT, as you can easily get wheel-spin. Using the OEM 17x7” wheels with the OEM all season tires on them, even 50% throttle from a dead stop can make traction control kick in. Forget flooring it, it’ll never gain traction at all from a stop.

This obviously does not happen with my 19x8.5” wheels and summer tires.
Lol. My mid-5's 0-60 TSP stage 1 CVT turbo tune disagrees with you. We need to use BBG and Advanced VSA to avoid massive amounts of wheelspin.
I'm just going to chime on the wheel spin...it happens to me too.
KTuner 21 PSI Dual basemap tune, with Improved Spool II, and Improved Throttle Response II.
Traction Control kicks with anything above ~1/2 throttle at a standstill...even on a dry sunny day.
Enkei PF07 18x9 wheels, with Firestone FireHawk Indy500 245/40/18 with less than 7000 km (~4300 miles) on them.
The lack of the helical LSD :(
(Doubt going up to 255 tire width would help much)

Better than the stock ContiProContacts ... wheel spins even at ~1/3 throttle.

@Coupe-R how are you not getting wheel spin with your set-up?!
 
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dallasjhawk

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I'm just going to chime on the wheel spin...it happens to me too.
KTuner 21 PSI Dual basemap tune, with Improved Spool II, and Improved Throttle Response II.
Traction Control kicks with anything above ~1/2 throttle at a standstill...even on a dry sunny day.
Enkei PF07 18x9 wheels, with Firestone FireHawk Indy500 245/40/18 with less than 7000 km (~4300 miles) on them.
The lack of the helical LSD :(
(Doubt going up to 255 tire width would help much)

Better than the stock ContiProContacts ... wheel spins even at ~1/3 throttle.

@Coupe-R how are you not getting wheel spin with your set-up?!
Do you have an ECU that supports map switching and Advanced VSA? If so, enable advanced VSA then go to quick adjustments and use the drop down to change to the middle selection
 


OP
OP

Coupe-R

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I'm just going to chime on the wheel spin...it happens to me too.
KTuner 21 PSI Dual basemap tune, with Improved Spool II, and Improved Throttle Response II.
Traction Control kicks with anything above ~1/2 throttle at a standstill...even on a dry sunny day.
Enkei PF07 18x9 wheels, with Firestone FireHawk Indy500 245/40/18 with less than 7000 km (~4300 miles) on them.
The lack of the helical LSD :(
(Doubt going up to 255 tire width would help much)

Better than the stock ContiProContacts ... wheel spins even at ~1/3 throttle.

@Coupe-R how are you not getting wheel spin with your set-up?!
It must be my tires! I have Hankook Ventus V12 Evo tires 225/35/19 maybe these summer tires have a better compound and give better grip than your Firestones? I have to say that these Hankooks really do grip the pavement. Once it gets to be around 45 degrees F at night (live the the northeast, so usually beginning of November) is when I switch back to the Continentals all seasons for the winter on the OEM wheels. The Hankooks become hard like plastic and traction is really reduced (not safe IMO).

Once the Continentals go I'll start putting dedicated winter tires on the OEM wheels.
 

Swordfish

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How much is the cost to replace a CVT out of warranty ? Sounds like the belt just snapped.

I remember seeing this video. It appears the weakest point is the CVT.

 

Vic_L

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Do you have an ECU that supports map switching and Advanced VSA? If so, enable advanced VSA then go to quick adjustments and use the drop down to change to the middle selection
Yes, my ECU supports map switching.
I'll need to check is Advanced VSA is an available option -- I think it should be.
Thanks.

It must be my tires! I have Hankook Ventus V12 Evo tires 225/35/19 maybe these summer tires have a better compound and give better grip than your Firestones? I have to say that these Hankooks really do grip the pavement. Once it gets to be around 45 degrees F at night (live the the northeast, so usually beginning of November) is when I switch back to the Continentals all seasons for the winter on the OEM wheels. The Hankooks become hard like plastic and traction is really reduced (not safe IMO).

Once the Continentals go I'll start putting dedicated winter tires on the OEM wheels.
Ahh maybe...
The Hankooks are rated as "Max Performance Summer" tires, while the Firestones are "Ultra High Performance Summer" tires...at least according to TireRack.
UHP uses slightly stiffer compound for a bit better tread life over MP.
(I guess that is the trade-off of getting the Firestones over the Michelin PS 4S :ninja:)
 


MarshX

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Just thought I'd share my experience with my recent CVT failure, what (probably) caused it, and how it was resolved thankfully under warranty. See TL;DR on the bottom if you don't want all the details (though the details shine a lot of light on what happened). Feel free to AMA if it's not already included in this post.

  1. Background info
    • 2018 Civic EX-T 1.5 with around 33,500 miles at time of failure
    • Performance bolt ons are as follows:
      • PRL 3" catted downpipe & frontpipe
      • AFE Takeda intake
      • 3" straight through (no mufflers or resonators) shop made catback exhaust
      • KTuner custom dyno tune targeting 24psi on the top end
    • My driving style: On weekends, for car events/meets, or just during awesome weather; sporty and aggressive. For the Monday-Friday 30 mile each way commute to work - very conservative on Eco mode.
  2. KTuner specific details
    • Early spool enabled, Improved spool II and Improved Throttle Responsiveness II.
    • On the fly maps:
    • Tune 1 is factory turbo responsiveness and factory Boost Target Ramp Rate. This tune is capped at 21psi (Eco mode is 17psi). This is what I use for the M-F commute and regular easy driving.
    • Tune 2 is Improved Turbo Responsiveness II, Boost Target Ramp Rate is Aggressive Ramp Rate II, and targets 24psi. This is what I use when I just want to feel the power, street race, etc. I use this map less than 15% of the time.
  3. So what happened? I pushed the limits (that I knew well about, thanks to this forum) on my CVT and paid the price.
    • Background: I was at a late night meet with at least 200 other cars in this industrial area of a city in my state (little to no risk of police shutting us down here). Everybody was having a great time, especially with the shenanigans. People 2 stepping, burnouts, street racing, you know how it goes. I decided to participate in a couple straight line street races against other cars in the Civic's class.
    • The first 2 races went just fine, I actually won both to my own surprise. The third one is where "it" happened.
    • I had traction control disabled (have good summer tires that don't lose traction even if floored from a dead stop), had map 2 on (the one targeting 24psi up top, aggressive ramp II, and turbo responsiveness II). Car was in "S". I flew off the line, and when I got up to around 5900rpm and the car was going to do the simulated shift point, I felt it lurch twice, then nothing. The pedal was to the floor, engine screaming, but no further movement. I let momentum bring me to the side of the road. I immediately knew the tranny went and my heart dropped. No check engine lights were present.
    • Before I had the car towed to a Honda dealer that was about 6 miles away, I returned the car to the stock tune with my KTuner v2 and unlocked it from the ECU while on the side of the road. It was Saturday-Sunday night so the dealership was closed. I dropped the key in the key drop, filled out the form, and called Monday.
    • The dealership verified transmission failure, and submitted the warranty request to "TechLine". They said that either a new transmission would show up the next day meaning the request was approved, or that they would get a call from Honda Engineering and would do an investigation first. Waiting those 24 hours for an answer was nerve wracking. I got a call the next morning, and low and behold a new transmission for me was delivered. No investigation was performed. I got my car back 3 days ago and it drives perfectly. See the below picture of the invoice I received after the service was done
Wn2eqmC.jpg

  1. Car now and going forward
    • I made the decision that though those functions in the tune are fun, I am going to pull back a good amount. I reduced the max PSI to 21, turned off early spool, and set Turbo Responsiveness and Boost Target Ramp Rate to "factory". This is a much more conservative tune and my hope is that the new CVT will last a lot longer than the original one. I feel the difference in the transmission driving with these new parameters. Before, the simulated shifts were very pronounced, especially when in the higher RPM band. It would even clunk when getting off the throttle up top. It doesn't do that anymore, and power delivery is much smoother and more "linear" feeling.

TL;DR

Was well aware of the CVT limits, pushed them anyway, then paid the price. Was doing some late night straight line street races at a meet. On the 3rd race, CVT failed. Custom dyno tune with KTuner, 24psi, early spool enabled, Turbo Responsiveness II and Aggressive Ramp Rate II. Honda dealer replaced the transmission under warranty. Moving forward I made my tune significantly more conservative. Reduced the max PSI to 21, turned off early spool, and set Turbo Responsiveness and Boost Target Ramp Rate to "factory".
I have a couple questions if you don’t mind. How far away were you from that specific dealer and how much did you pay for towing to get there? Also, would you have taken it to the dealer you got your car from if you happened to be closer? And finally, it’s interesting that they have you a new tranny knowing you had aftermarket parts. I remember seeing someone else here on the forums with a similar situation but was denied replacement under warranty due to aftermarket parts that “could have been the reason” to the failure of the CVT. But anyways, sorry to bother with so many questions and I’m glad you actually got your car back with a new tranny. Hoping we could all prepare ourselves for something like this even though it’s not likely like someone had mentioned.
 

garoto

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Actually it is how it works, and no going to a different dealer doesnt always work. The Regional who has final say usually would have say over multiple dealers in his region. As for capitalism, has nothing to do with the MSRP its all the bullshit they put on the cars that no one needs, and the shady shit pulled in the finance office. most dealers are trash. most recent finance visit went like this "I added in the $1200 8/100 extended warranty, got you a .5% lower interest rate and your payment only went up $8 a month." "Well I dont want that $1200 8/100 warranty, but I'll gladly take the .5% lower rate" So tell me why ADDING $1200 to my loan would all of a sudden qualify me for a .5% lower rate? It didn't but the dealer was holding back that lower rate to make more money on the back end. Dealers are trash.
You’re describing capitalism. They can charge what they want, and you vote with your wallet. Does it suck? Yes. Does it make a difference that it sucks, no. If you were rich would you care? Unlikely. Are they selling the $50k type r to the rich? Definitely the well off folks, and the idiots who ruin their lives for it.

If all dealers are rejecting your warranty to the point of requiring a regional manager, and even the regional manager rejects, then there’s the law.

You don’t like the law, and therefore shafting Honda is the right answer to you? That’s a great formula for a very difficult future. I would sell the car, why would I want to own a car of a company that’s so bad they won’t even cover your warranty.
 

dallasjhawk

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You don’t like the law, and therefore shafting Honda is the right answer to you?
Where is the law that I dont like? There is no law that finance has to be a trash department out to line the pockets of the dealer. And no, Im not shafting honda, If they cover it then thats on them, what did I do wrong? I mean same scenario as the finance guy screwing me right, If I dont say no, they get the money, #CapitalismBro.
 

garoto

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Where is the law that I dont like? There is no law that finance has to be a trash department out to line the pockets of the dealer. And no, Im not shafting honda, If they cover it then thats on them, what did I do wrong? I mean same scenario as the finance guy screwing me right, If I dont say no, they get the money, #CapitalismBro.
It is not the same.
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