2019 Type-R track review

djhartm

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Hi folks, I picked up a 2019 after reading all the praise from automotive journalists and particularly it's stellar performance in last year's Lightning Lap @ VIR.

I am an MSF certified Level II high-performance driving instructor and instruct for Porsche, BMW, Audi, and many other clubs. I have thousands of laps on my home track at VIR, and enjoy teaching students how to become better drivers at speed.

Since 2013, I have been tracking modified Corvettes, starting with a 2005 C6 Z51, then a 2015 C7 Z51, and currently own a 2018 Z06 Z07.

Last October I spun the car and had a hard hit in T6 at VIR. The car is being repaired, but it has been a long drawn-out event dealing with insurance and getting the car track-ready again.

I wanted to get something different to play with while waiting for my Z06, and I was looking at new a new Miata RF and the Type-R. Both cars are pretty hard to find (a club Miata with the Brembo is almost impossible), but nobody would deal on a Miata, and the configuration I wanted was too difficult to locate. So I jumped on a great deal on a Rallye Red.

I picked the car up in VA and that weekend I took it to my shop at VIR (shout out to Quantum Speedworks), and all we did was put Castrol SRF in the brake lines before instructing with NASA for Hyperfest that weekend.

In my Z06, I can turn consistent 2:06's on VIR full on Cup 2 DOTs; fast, but not insanely so.

Impressions:

Pluses:

Phenomenal chassis. In R+ mode, this car is sweetheart on a racetrack. It has near telepathic steering with great feel and control. Mid-corner adjustments are no sweat, and the car handles transitions with ease. Not having driven a relatively high HP FWD car in a long, long time, I was a bit nervous about the rear end coming around, and as I drove more aggressively, I could feel stability control coming on more and more, especially under hard braking with degrees in the wheel. Nothing disconcerting, but definitely moving, i.e. trail braking into T16 (Hogpen). I am aggressive on curbing and was happy to find the Type-R gobbled up gators including FIA without drama.

The car was playful to drive vs the Z06 which is so fast, it requires you to always be on your A-game. For my last sessions on day 2, I turned off stability control, and what was very good, became quite special. The car slides predictably, and when the rear end does get loose, it does so in a very non-threatening manner. No dark basement fears of throttle snap oversteer.

Minuses:

#1 -> the Brembo brakes are not up to serious track work. Specifically, the pad selection overheats and then dumps material on the rotors. Braking started to go off in later sessions as I increased entry speeds and pushed braking points back. Nothing scary, but the pads let me know they had had enough. Granted it was in the mid-90's, but I was genuinely disappointed that I could not even threshold brake in later sessions. My C7's had phenomenal Brembo OE brakes with pads that did not overheat on a car that weighed quite a bit more. It is disappointing that for all the track-ready hype, Honda spec'd a pad more suited to aggressive street driving. Once these are gone, I will be looking into Carbotech or Hawk pads. For novice and intermediate drivers, the stock front pads are probably fine. Advanced drivers will benefit from track-orientated pads. I did not detect any line squish, but with more aggressive pads, steel lines would likely also add to the braking feel and control.

So much material had been shed onto the front rotors that the car developed a noticeable shudder under braking with an audible grinding noise. No damage to the rotors, and plenty of pad material left, just lots bound to the rotors that will need to come off during the next track outing. Honda should address this by providing front pads more suited to what the car is capable of. Just to ensure that there was no damage, I took the car to my local Honda dealer, who incredulously told me the brakes had been 'ruined due to abuse' and they would be happy to price out new rotors and pads. LOL Honda needs to educate their techs on this car. I opened a case with Honda regarding this.

#2, never go out with less than half a tank. The car threw a bunch of codes and went into limp mode. I had to pull off track because of the danger involved in the speed disparity. This is apparently a common issue and it makes me wonder about the fuel pickup design for a car that should be capable of providing fuel under high G-loads.

#3 Tires. The Contis are not an aggressive track tire, and the fronts pushed quite a bit. I struggled with trying to find grip by lowering pressures, but then the tires rolled too much on the sidewalls, and handling suffered, The huge tread grooves on the tires and 240 treadwear rating really limit the car's grip and capability around the track

#4 No TPMS readings and a very hokey 'stopwatch' function. Having to gauge tires at the end of a session seems pretty out of line for a car of this price range. The stopwatch and timing capabilities are incredibly inadequate.

#5 This car runs very hot. I noticed power dropping off and the temp gauge hitting 3/4 of the way up the display. While I never went into a temp-caused limp mode, this car could definitely use some cooling enhancements. I pulled the gasket at the top of the firewall to allow more airflow, and also added Water Wetter, but not sure how effecting they will be at lowering temps.

#7 4th to 5th throws. I kept hitting 3rd unless I really slowed my shifting down and consciously thought about pressing the shifter to the right. There's something about this throw that isn't quite right. Perhaps it will get better as miles accrue,

It is an odd cross between a momentum car and a HP car. Obviously the car doesn't have 650 lb of torque like a Z06, so there were some corners like coming out of T10 at 4k+ RPM where the car felt flat. 5th was probably too high of a gear to be in, so I have to play and experiment more to find optimal gearing in certain sections of the track.

Other niggles - no sunroof, and no power driver's seat - come-on. The car is already 3100+ lbs. Who cares what another 30 lbs would add at that point. I'd much rather have those pleasantries vs a tenth of a second in lap time. Exhaust note, yeah we all know about that. But better quiet than sounding like a fart-can ricer.

Overall I am very happy with my purchase and believe the Type-R is a fun, capable platform, that with a few minor tweaks, will become a very capable track car. My corner speeds were approaching those of my Z06 after one weekend with this car, so that is an impressive indicator of just how capable this car's platform is. My last session was spent playing with another instructor in a 3-series with r-comps and suspension mods; he gave me a point by on the last lap. :)

Terminal velocity on the back straight was 130 vs 161 in my Z06. Front straight saw a tick north of 125 vs 150.

I may play with camber on the front, but I'm not sure how much you can really get by removing the stock pins. I'm looking to keep this car essentially stock, whereas my Z06 is my highly modified track car.

Honda Civic 10th gen 2019 Type-R track review 20190518_183111
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toddrhodes

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Great post, thank you for sharing!
 

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So much material had been shed onto the front rotors that the car developed a noticeable shudder under braking with an audible grinding noise. No damage to the rotors, and plenty of pad material left, just lots bound to the rotors that will need to come off during the next track outing. Honda should address this by providing front pads more suited to what the car is capable of. Just to ensure that there was no damage, I took the car to my local Honda dealer, who incredulously told me the brakes had been 'ruined due to abuse' and they would be happy to price out new rotors and pads. LOL Honda needs to educate their techs on this car. I opened a case with Honda regarding this.
Great post! I had the same issue with the OE pads/rotors on my last track day. The pads are glazed and there is a shudder now from the pad material that is embedded on the rotors. How did you go about removing the material from the rotors?
 

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On the 4th to 5th gear change, try putting a slightly taller shift knob, like the one that honda offers with the leather wrap.
 

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Wow!
THANK YOU!
Really appreciate this.
VIR was my home track and where I cut my teeth in a well built track oriented Miata.
Taking the R out for its maiden track day at AMSP August the 2nd and this really helps.
If you do private instructor PM me and maybe we can meet for an event at VIR in early 2020.
I've used Karl Burke in the past - "Feel what the car is telling you grasshopper."

 


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djhartm

djhartm

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The XP8's all around helped settle the car under heavy braking.

Rotor temps were consistent 680 - 780 degree range across front and back.

The crappy Contis are starting to peel apart again, no matter ho much tire pressure I run or how far I stay away from the curbing.

They are good for 1.5 - 2x HPDE events at the instructor level pace, which really sucks.

I seem to be getting some rear wheel braking even with VSA completely turned off.

Not sure what is going on there.

The parking brake goes crazy since I changed the rear pads, so I am leaving it alone until I can take the car in for the calibration procedure, which is asinine. You should not have to have your car calibrated when you change brake pads.

Instructing for the SVT Mustang Cobra Club this weekend on VIR Full, Getting lots of compliments. I can hang with the Mustangs & Corvettes in the tighter sections, but they leave me on any straights.

Couple of ZR-1's out as well. Those cars are FAST.

With some R-Comp tires this car would be phenomenal.

The 18" rim options seems to be the most viable for gaining access to stickier rubber at an affordable price point, which is exactly what I did on my Z06 Z07.
 
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djhartm

djhartm

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Great post! I had the same issue with the OE pads/rotors on my last track day. The pads are glazed and there is a shudder now from the pad material that is embedded on the rotors. How did you go about removing the material from the rotors?
The pad material will come off the rotors with a track heat cycle or sustained street driving with new pads installed.
 

remc86007

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Other niggles - no sunroof, and no power driver's seat - come-on. The car is already 3100+ lbs. Who cares what another 30 lbs would add at that point. I'd much rather have those pleasantries vs a tenth of a second in lap time.
20190518_183111.jpg
^Strongly disagree about the sunroof. Why on earth would you want to increase weight [at the top of the car] and simultaneously reduce chassis rigidity in a sports car? I also prefer the manual seat as I only adjust the seat once a month when I vacuum the interior.

Every other point I agree with
 
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djhartm

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This car is a porker at almost 3200lbs already. The weight of a sunroof would be a negligible add.

The roof structure is or can easily be made to adjust for any potential offset in rigidity.

My Z06 is a T-top. You don't think GM made the frame strong enough vs a solid roof? There is zero flex at the track. The 755 HP ZR1 uses the same frame...

I like creature comforts and if I wanted a race car, I'd buy a gutted, prepped, truly lightweight car.

I respect your opinion though.
 

Type-JZ

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i'm by no means trying to be a jerk, but I don't think this belongs in the "warranty/repair...etc" section. The stuff you stated won't be an issue for about 80-85% (IMHO, ;)) owners out there that aren't able to push the car to it's limits.

there's already a thread like this; https://www.civicx.com/threads/civi...-bads-lets-share-our-experience.20591/page-26

Thx for providing some very good info. You're the 2nd person i've came across that stated the pad deposits on rotors. I believe lots of people are not aware of this and think they're rotors are warped and automatically buy new rotors. i'll definitely keep this in mind.
All of your points are dead on and are indeed issues. Also, discussed in the above thread. For cooling; oil cooler, grill, bigger intercooler, and bigger radiator will all help. The ugly truth for most is if you're not overheating, you're not going fast enough.
 


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djhartm

djhartm

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i'm by no means trying to be a jerk, but I don't think this belongs in the "warranty/repair...etc" section. The stuff you stated won't be an issue for about 80-85% (IMHO, ;)) owners out there that aren't able to push the car to it's limits.

there's already a thread like this; https://www.civicx.com/threads/civi...-bads-lets-share-our-experience.20591/page-26

Thx for providing some very good info. You're the 2nd person i've came across that stated the pad deposits on rotors. I believe lots of people are not aware of this and think they're rotors are warped and automatically buy new rotors. i'll definitely keep this in mind.
All of your points are dead on and are indeed issues. Also, discussed in the above thread. For cooling; oil cooler, grill, bigger intercooler, and bigger radiator will all help. The ugly truth for most is if you're not overheating, you're not going fast enough.

Point taken.

However, I've run the car (2019 MY) now 4x in 95+ degree heat at an instructor pace @ VIR & have not gone into limp mode from over-heating.

Given that, the car is bone stock except for brake upgrades.

I took my mentor out to get some coaching (VIR's Chief Instructor), and he felt I was pushing the car pretty hard.

I understand there were overheating issues on previous MY's, but I have not hit them yet (fortunately).
 

Type R 761

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I understand there were overheating issues on previous MY's, but I have not hit them yet (fortunately).[/QUOTE[/QUOTE]

Well I have a 2017 MY, same as you, I'm an instructor up in Canada, have done 15 track days so far. No overheating, temp kreeps up slightly on hot days. But car Never goes into limp mode. When I read oil temp and water temp of OBD2. They aren't high, at 220 to 223 F for oil and water once it kreeps up just above the water temp icon. Nothing dramatic. Same as you, had some brake deposits, fixed by running pagid DTC 60s. Once disks were clean went back to stock pads and deactivate VSA (tork vectoring) but kept TC on. Now, No more brake pad material deposits on stock pads. Last 2 track days I ran pagid yellow in front and DTC 30 in back, I really like the new setup. Very stable, great feeling and modulation. For the conti street tires, my experience, aim for 40 psi hot. Also I do a mid day swap of tires front to back (street tires only). They are not designed for all day track duty, a few track sessions no problem but not a full day on track.... can't take the heat. since the front tires Take the most punishment, move them to the back mid day, you will see they will manage better and wear more evenly
 

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Same as you, had some brake deposits, fixed by running pagid DTC 60s. Once disks were clean went back to stock pads and deactivate VSA (tork vectoring) but kept TC on. Now, No more brake pad material deposits on stock pads.
What version of deactivating VSA are you using? Just pressing the VSA button? Long press of the VSA button? Or the longer “pedal dance” procedure? I am also getting pad material deposits on my stock rotors from stock pads after a few track days but this was with VSA/traction control on.
 
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I press and hold the VSA button for ~3 seconds until the message indicates VSA is 'off'.
 

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What version of deactivating VSA are you using? Just pressing the VSA button? Long press of the VSA button? Or the longer “pedal dance” procedure? I am also getting pad material deposits on my stock rotors from stock pads after a few track days but this was with VSA/traction control on.
Just a quick press of VSA button, 2 seconds ish deactivates the torque vectoring that uses brakes to help you turn in. On a dry track, when going fast and for long track sessions, the brakes never cool of since the inside ones to the corner are being applied all the time. Don't get me wrong, if it's a new track and I know nothing about it or if raining, I leave full on the electronics are amazing. With VSA off first level, TC is still working so it can still help save you out there. If you hold down for 5sec ish then it's fully off, and car also let's you know with a different message. I have tested, but I never use on track, reason is I prefer a bit more rear pad wear any day for the added safety as opposed to a crash .... and I have been doing this 12years. Also you don't get deposits with just the VSA off so no need to go fully off. Just as a FYI we tell all newbies to the track, the only difference between hitting the wall and not hitting wall during a spin is luck so keep TC on your side, combined with good reflexes it will save you.
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