KTuner Extended Testing And Tune Results

17CivicTypeR_Brian

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@17CivicTypeR_Brian - I did some datalogging and pulls on a GPS-based performance meter (dragy) and saw incremental, but verifiable increases in acceleration from both ignition based traction control and flex fuel @ E30. My logs from the E30 run also looked better than my 93 octane tuned runs - DIFP was more consistent and closer to commanded vs delivered. 93 octane had small counts of knock, E30 had none. E30 had a little less boost but faster acceleration.

If I remember right, 30-70 times were about 8% faster with TCM than without, and were about 10% faster with TCM + E30 vs TCM + 93 octane.

.
Dig it. Gains are gains!
I'm with you though - saving up to build up. I hope to be a little more proactive though - I want to build the stock engine and put it back in so I have numbers matching and reliability. An NSX is unrealistic for me so this is going to have to 'keep up.'
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ManfromRI

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I know you said that from before, I was just hoping for a more detailed agenda or goals you're pursuing. From what it sounds like ATM, I'll just stop checking on updates then
 

Florence_NC

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I haven't been in a Hondata car with Traction Control but is it really that amazing? Not being ignorant (deliberately) - I really don't see a problem with traction in my Stage 1 KTuner car. Obviously I get wheel spin but the Boost By Gear does pretty well to contain it in Sport. In +R, the ECU just lets the wheels spin without cutting and it seems to pull harder than it does when it cuts. I'm on 255/35/20 stock wheels - this seemed to be the 'fix' for traction control.
I can't speak specifically about the Hondata, but in general terms an ignition cut-based TC is far superior in a racing/performance application. Nearly instantaneous in reaction to both cutting torque upon slip detection and reinstating it after recovery.

And while torque management (ie boost by gear) to prevent slip in the first place is the best solution, conditions are way too variable for that to be a perfect solution. A good TC system is still needed.


There's just so many directions we can go but the limitation of the Rods still seems to be the biggest future problem.
I keep seeing this rod weakness claim, but who is actually claiming it? And under what circustances did they fail? If the tune is off, or it runs out of fuel, an engine WILL detonate. If is detonates hard enough for long enough, something WILL break. If the rod is the weak link in the chain, then that is the point of failure. If you fix that problem, then the next-weakest point will fail, probably the pistons. Just because rods are failing at 400HP with a bad tune doesn't mean they have a 400HP limit.

Does anybody remember SEMA 2016? They had the K20C on an engine stand and were touting the ability to buy, essentially, a crate motor in, as I recall, 250 to 450hp configurations...can someone access HPD and see if that engine is available, and what the difference is? For the 600HP RallyCross Civic, is that a built engine as well?
I have seen this mentioned, but so far all I have ever actually seen listed is a 306HP crate engine, which is obviously just a CTR stock engine.


None of these are going to come in under $1000. Piggybacking is generally disliked or frowned upon.
Piggybacks are not that bad, especially for straight-line stuff. They do have limitations, but many can be worked around. That is probably a full discussion best left for a different thread.

Maybe we just need a progressive wet-shot of NOS...
I have already said that. The issue with nitrous is having to deal with the bottle. It is too hot from about late April until early September in my parts to keep a bottle in the car all the time. And with nitrous if you don't have a bottle, then you don't have anything.

This is my fault. From the beginning, I've only really been asking for FlexFuel because, for me, it's available all over the place.
I live in the 17th largest city in the US, and we don't have a single pump in the city or even in the county. The closest E85 station is 18 miles from my house in a different state. In a 50 mile radius, an area containing over 3 million people (nearly 1% of the entire country) and there are only 6 stations in that area. So now maybe some of you will understand why your touting E85 as a good solution doesn't apply to a very large percentage of the country.

No-lift shift is not necessary but I've never had it on any of my prior tuned vehicles. Am I really missing out?
If you have to lift off the throttle on a turbo, it will lose turbo spool and boost. Some solution to prevent this, and there is more than one way to do it, would prevent that and improve acceleration performance at any speed where shifting is involved.

BTW: I can shift mine any shift from 3-4 up without letting off the throttle (powershift), and 2-3 with only a slight throttle lift, but it is tough on the clutch to do that. And forget 1-2 with this grindy transmission, which is the gear change that matters the most. Being able to make just the 1-2 shift without losing boost would be worth a significant gain, probably 2 tenths or better in a quarter mile. Mine falls on its face for a half second or so whenever I shift 1-2. Unless I live with the grind and just jam it. But how long is that going to live?


I thought it was -300cfm...
I think the spirit of the article was assuming the K20A was also turbo. In that comparison, the turbo K20A will flow more air than the K20C because of the lack of tumble geometry.

I believe it's in the head port, however, not in the intake manifold. I thought I read that somewhere in the last 8 pages of reading!
Engines today must be super-efficient and emissions-clean, while also making power. The design requirements needed to do these 2 sets of things are almost always aligned as polar opposites. As such, engines have become more and more specific and sensitive to very small changes in design. The days of some engine platform having tons of available power headroom, that is the ability to make 300 to 400% of the OEM specifications, are simply over.

The K20C is a finely-tuned piece of equipment built to satisfy almost an unbelievable set of requirements. But just about everything about it is built right to that set of limits, and leaves little room to go anywhere. The fuel system, cylinder head flow, turbo, exhaust ports, you name it. It is built to make in the low 300HP range with a 20-30% factor of safety on everything. Once you push up against those safety factors, you are done. This is just the nature of the beast in modern engines.
 

J35W2

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Traction Control is available right now for whomever wants it: Michelin PS4S or Cup 2’s in 265 or 275 on 9.5” wide wheels. I have a very similar set-up & custom tune to @idragmazda & on stock wheels/tires, gears 1/2/3 were basically useless with anything more than 40/50% throttle. With 275/30-19 PS4S, I get zero slip in 2 or 3 at WOT.
 

idragmazda

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Traction Control is available right now for whomever wants it: Michelin PS4S or Cup 2’s in 265 or 275 on 9.5” wide wheels. I have a very similar set-up & custom tune to @idragmazda & on stock wheels/tires, gears 1/2/3 were basically useless with anything more than 40/50% throttle. With 275/30-19 PS4S, I get zero slip in 2 or 3 at WOT.
Glad to hear this. I’m planning to pick up the ps4s once my wheels arrive.

I still would like to see a TC solution but sounds like we’ll have to wait
 


toddrhodes

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Traction Control is available right now for whomever wants it: Michelin PS4S or Cup 2’s in 265 or 275 on 9.5” wide wheels. I have a very similar set-up & custom tune to @idragmazda & on stock wheels/tires, gears 1/2/3 were basically useless with anything more than 40/50% throttle. With 275/30-19 PS4S, I get zero slip in 2 or 3 at WOT.
Depending where you live, how effective a solution is this when temps dip down into the 40's? That's ultimately why I chose the route I did - better tires help a lot, but IMO aren't that effective in rain/colder temps. Granted I'm not getting on it as badly, but even 255 PS4S tires were useless into parts of 3rd gear in temps as warm as 60* here this spring.
 

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Glad to hear this. I’m planning to pick up the ps4s once my wheels arrive.

I still would like to see a TC solution but sounds like we’ll have to wait
I feel you, brother. Sorry, that was kind of tongue-in-cheek about the traction control. Free software upgrades are certainly a better/cheaper option for a lot of folks that already have KTUner & don't plan to change their wheel/tire set-up, so I understand the want/need. I just went the old fashioned way with wide, sticky rubber.
 

J35W2

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Depending where you live, how effective a solution is this when temps dip down into the 40's? That's ultimately why I chose the route I did - better tires help a lot, but IMO aren't that effective in rain/colder temps. Granted I'm not getting on it as badly, but even 255 PS4S tires were useless into parts of 3rd gear in temps as warm as 60* here this spring.
Right on, man, I was sort of joking as it is obviously not the same. TC is a nice option that works in all driving conditions, but I guess I'm more akin to modulating my driving style & throttle input to match the conditions. Same concept, different approach. I'm not going to mash the throttle in wet or cold conditions because it's not the safest approach, but I certainly understand that folks want this option, especially if you track your R and are looking for every possible advantage.
 

toddrhodes

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Right on, man, I was sort of joking as it is obviously not the same. TC is a nice option that works in all driving conditions, but I guess I'm more akin to modulating my driving style & throttle input to match the conditions. Same concept, different approach. I'm not going to mash the throttle in wet or cold conditions because it's not the safest approach, but I certainly understand that folks want this option, especially if you track your R and are looking for every possible advantage.
My bad, my sarcasm meter is off today :) I'm going to settle on 265/35 Michelins, just in case I lower it later, it should work out fine (and I think I will at this point). That's what is so great about this and many other hobbies though - no single right answer, and just about every reasonable approach can add value :)
 

17CivicTypeR_Brian

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And while torque management (ie boost by gear) to prevent slip in the first place is the best solution, conditions are way too variable for that to be a perfect solution. A good TC system is still needed.

I keep seeing this rod weakness claim, but who is actually claiming it? And under what circustances did they fail? If the tune is off, or it runs out of fuel, an engine WILL detonate. If is detonates hard enough for long enough, something WILL break. If the rod is the weak link in the chain, then that is the point of failure. If you fix that problem, then the next-weakest point will fail, probably the pistons. Just because rods are failing at 400HP with a bad tune doesn't mean they have a 400HP limit.

I have seen this mentioned, but so far all I have ever actually seen listed is a 306HP crate engine, which is obviously just a CTR stock engine.

Piggybacks are not that bad, especially for straight-line stuff. They do have limitations, but many can be worked around. That is probably a full discussion best left for a different thread.

I live in the 17th largest city in the US, and we don't have a single pump in the city or even in the county. The closest E85 station is 18 miles from my house in a different state. In a 50 mile radius, an area containing over 3 million people (nearly 1% of the entire country) and there are only 6 stations in that area. So now maybe some of you will understand why your touting E85 as a good solution doesn't apply to a very large percentage of the country.
I'm going to have to experience the traction control because I'm finding my setup to handle better than stock, but in Sport mode I do feel the overcorrection. The wheelspin is controlled pretty well but at times too much.

I think the rod weakness is coming from people, mostly on Hondata (but at least one or two on standalone) that tried to turn it up too far, or at least too low when the piston speed is too low. In my mind, it's a product of the incredible turbo spool that we have now. B16 rods were 'weak' too but could easily handle 300hp and could make 400hp for a while if the boost came on late enough. We also had near limitless fuel back then but only had access to 93 or 94. I also think the exact science of the injection system (it's not a continuous stream like port injection) means we have to try to inject a 'huge' amount of fuel into the combustion chamber in a very narrow window of time. Port injection would be nice....

Your E85 situation doesn't sound all that different from mine actually and I think many parts in the country are in a similar situation. I think in Cali, some people drive an hour and pick up a couple hundred gallons at a time. Youtubers.
For about 18 months, I was driving my Si plus 2 5gallon tanks about 40 miles out of the way to get fuel - and I'd do that twice a week. Now that I don't have that car anymore, (and finished grad school so I cut out that drive), stations nearby my location started carrying the fuel. Sheetz - I started emailing customer support and customer service promising to buy 20-30 gallons a week if they'd bring it to a particular location...they brought it in Jan/Feb 2017 and I traded in for the R in July so I didn't get to enjoy it for long.

I still haven't been able to determine if the CTR is offered in Brazil AND in an E100 configuration...they had it for the 8th gen and I believe the 9th gen as well.
 


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My bad, my sarcasm meter is off today :) I'm going to settle on 265/35 Michelins, just in case I lower it later, it should work out fine (and I think I will at this point). That's what is so great about this and many other hobbies though - no single right answer, and just about every reasonable approach can add value :)
I have to say that I am surprised how well the PS4S have improved the grip over the stock Conti's, but 275 over 245 matters a lot too. Next tire change for me will be to 265/30-19 Cup 2's, because if the PS4S are this good, then the Cup 2's must be better, right?! I also want 265's so I can lower at some point, when this becomes a fun only car for me in a couple years.
 

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Putting aside traction control for the moment, are there any future plans to work on support for port injection using the stock ECU? Is it even feasible? @KTuner
 

17CivicTypeR_Brian

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Putting aside traction control for the moment, are there any future plans to work on support for port injection using the stock ECU? Is it even feasible? @KTuner
Can't answer for KTuner but... I was once told 'a Focus RS ECU can be further modified (tweaked?) to run port and direct injectors.' I cannot confirm or deny this as I have no real connection to the Focus RS world. I'll try to talk to some people at Cars&Coffee over the weekend.
RS, apparently, has a Bosche ECU. Not the same but could have similar architecture?
 

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Can't answer for KTuner but... I was once told 'a Focus RS ECU can be further modified (tweaked?) to run port and direct injectors.' I cannot confirm or deny this as I have no real connection to the Focus RS world. I'll try to talk to some people at Cars&Coffee over the weekend.
RS, apparently, has a Bosche ECU. Not the same but could have similar architecture?
Which C&C you headed to? Depending on how the weekend shapes up, I may be up for one. Let me know!
 
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Putting aside traction control for the moment, are there any future plans to work on support for port injection using the stock ECU? Is it even feasible? @KTuner
This can be done already, as has been.
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