Civic Type R at the track, goods and bads! Let's share our experience.

DPL8 said:

So essentially if you are on track you would recommend Redline 0W40?

thank you for all of the research ! very helpful

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• SAE ratings of oil weights do not give a complete picture of oil performance. It is a test to determine viscosity in a low stress environment (say, oil galleys). It does not predict performance in high stress areas (say, crank bearings and piston rings).
• For high stress areas, a completely different test is used, the HTHS Viscosity (High Temp High Shear). This test is performed at an even higher temperature (150°C) and at a prescribed value of 1 million shearing operations per second.
• There looks to be a good correlation between HTHS value and critical wear areas at elevated oil temps, with no benefit seen to running a high HTHS value at lower oil temps.
• HTHS viscosity seems to be a very good prediction of oil pressure at normal operating temps (high HTHS = high oil pressure), while SAE oil weight is not.
• HTHS values of 2.6 - 2.8 seems to be the tipping point: below this range and wear accelerates. I'm not sure how universal this range really is, as the sources were not well cited. Some engine manufacturers clearly ask for values above this for specific engines.
• HTHS is not clearly stated for a lot of oils. The best I could find for the synthetic Honda 0w20 is right at 2.6 based on two different OEM across the years. I also read several accounts that the HTHS value is expected to drop to 2.4 after a short period of driving.

• Trying to get increased protection solely through an increase in oil weight is not going to cut it.
• Picking an oil with a little margin over an HTHS value of 2.6 is a good place to start
• Monitoring oil pressure across the life of the oil is critical (both every day driving and track use)
• High oil temps are not the sole indicator of potential oil issues

• Sticking with an oil that is close to the design base weight is going to help day to day efficiency. While this intuitively makes sense that a low viscosity oil will be more efficient, the direct correlation between HTHS and oil pressure, and the very poor correlation between weight and oil pressure, would seem to indicate that the HTHS is much more important to efficiency. So long as the HTHS is sufficiently high, and oil pressure is in the correct region, does the oil weight really matter?
• Paying attention to VII content is a lot less important than the HTHS value. To me it seems that by default having an HTHS value comparison between oils is already telling you how well the VII package is holding up under real life stress.

lorenkb said:

Well, I would have before spending many more hours reading about oil since that post... Honestly, I'm at a point where I'm half way between confused and confident. Here's my current understanding, with apologies for the word forts:

• SAE ratings of oil weights do not give a complete picture of oil performance. It is a test to determine viscosity in a low stress environment (say, oil galleys). It does not predict performance in high stress areas (say, crank bearings and piston rings).
• For high stress areas, a completely different test is used, the HTHS Viscosity (High Temp High Shear). This test is performed at an even higher temperature (150°C) and at a prescribed value of 1 million shearing operations per second.
• There looks to be a good correlation between HTHS value and critical wear areas at elevated oil temps, with no benefit seen to running a high HTHS value at lower oil temps.
• HTHS viscosity seems to be a very good prediction of oil pressure at normal operating temps (high HTHS = high oil pressure), while SAE oil weight is not.
• HTHS values of 2.6 - 2.8 seems to be the tipping point: below this range and wear accelerates. I'm not sure how universal this range really is, as the sources were not well cited. Some engine manufacturers clearly ask for values above this for specific engines.
• HTHS is not clearly stated for a lot of oils. The best I could find for the synthetic Honda 0w20 is right at 2.6 based on two different OEM across the years. I also read several accounts that the HTHS value is expected to drop to 2.4 after a short period of driving.

To add to this, the amount of VII (Viscosity Index Improvers) is mentioned as critical. Viscosity Index itself is a measure of how much the oil viscosity changes with temperature. A high value means that the oil changes very little with temp. In an ideal world of every day driving across a wide range of temperatures, you want a very high Viscosity Index (cold start is at a nice thin fluid, and high temps are also appropriately thin). However, VII additives are prone to failing (shearing) at the extreme end of temp and stress. Once they fail, viscosity falls off and wear protection goes down as well.

OK... so here's where I'm at:

• Trying to get increased protection solely through an increase in oil weight is not going to cut it.
• Picking an oil with a little margin over an HTHS value of 2.6 is a good place to start
• Monitoring oil pressure across the life of the oil is critical (both every day driving and track use)
• High oil temps are not the sole indicator of potential oil issues

And some points that I'm not quite sure on:

• Sticking with an oil that is close to the design base weight is going to help day to day efficiency. While this intuitively makes sense that a low viscosity oil will be more efficient, the direct correlation between HTHS and oil pressure, and the very poor correlation between weight and oil pressure, would seem to indicate that the HTHS is much more important to efficiency. So long as the HTHS is sufficiently high, and oil pressure is in the correct region, does the oil weight really matter?
• Paying attention to VII content is a lot less important than the HTHS value. To me it seems that by default having an HTHS value comparison between oils is already telling you how well the VII package is holding up under real life stress.

Seems to me that we need some data on oil pressures with a fresh change of Honda 0w20 at normal operating temps, and a comparison in oil pressure profiles during and after the oil has been abused at the track for a while. If the pressure profile holds up, then perhaps the stock oil is good to go. If not, the experiment is repeated with a new oil with a slight HTHS bump. Red Line 0w20 and 5w20 claim HTHS values of 2.9 and 3.0

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JTPitsch said:

I'm sure its fine but the only real way to know is get an oil analysis done to make certain. The racing oils have a lot less detergents in them than normal oils. If you are just doing mostly street driving you'd be better off getting something like Mobil 1 EP or Pennzoil Platinum paired with an OEM filter for much cheaper at your local Wally World.

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Lust said:

I daily drive with 300v without issue. I had 2 track days and over 5k miles on the street and UOA came back fine. I sent in another sample the other day with a similar interval. Temps have hit 260F on track with 3 track days.

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JTPitsch said:

Oh man thats awesome! Did you happen to post those UOAs that I missed somewhere?

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.grimace said:

Last time at Thunderhill West I wasn’t overheating. SCCA tracknight tonight it wasn’t working out for me. Just added Hondata and I kept overheating 10-15 minutes in.

Time to add the oil cooler and front grill. Anyone else go with straight water and water wetter w/ no antifreeze?

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CPT CTR said:

Which track were you at for SCCA tracknight? Crazy that you would overheat at an SCCA event given that its hard to go 100% with so many cars on track. I looked into the straight water with water wetter but outside of the manufacturer claims, I could not find any solid data that it makes a significant difference. From what I've read from CTR owners, the grill the most significant cooling mod along with the oil cooler.

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DPL8 said:

Just got back from a weekend at Palmer Motorsports park and the car was insane, It held its own the entire time.

I placed 2nd in my time trials, My competition was mostly Corvettes stripped and caged E46s and 135s and Camaro 1LEs and Mustangs.

Anything under 1:50 there is moving.

I managed to do a 1:49.2 with lowering spring a rsb and RE71r's some BMSpec aero bits and number plates hah.

This car boogies.

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color me gone said:

Nice job, I am looking to get up to Palmer later this year, I am going to Thompson on 5/9/19 for a full day, last track day up Thompson I was driving my friends 2018 Shelby GT350 awesome ride, my CTR only had 50 miles on it so I am putting some miles on it for 5/9 but while I was up there I got invited to the members day from 9am till 1pm for FREE!!! TNIA SCCA starts at 2PM so plenty of track time coming up for my new ride.

For you a sub 1;50 is very fast for Palmer, Last year I got to go out on a ride along in Camaro and we were 1;45s and that was way to fast for being in the pass. seat.

So no over heating issues? That is my big concern.
Nice vid. nice driving.
May-be see you at a track around New England

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DPL8 said:

I had no issues to report as for heating but i have done some significant mods to overcome those fears, especially when it gets hotter this summer.

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handsoffsam said:

What was ambient at? Judging by the hoodie you're wearing in your video and the lack of leaves on the trees up there I'd say it's still kinda chilly? Interested in your mods. We're hitting 88 ambient here in Houston and my stock (except for wheels/tires) 2018 is barely making four hot laps.

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