Downshifting Jerking..

CTtypeR said:

if you're talking about going from 4th to second to make a turn, you can just ride the clutch through the turn. it's not something you're "supposed" to do, but to drive smoothly sometimes you need to make an exception. 4th gear, clutch in, shift to 2nd but keep the clutch in, and as you're coming out of the turn, add a little gas and release the clutch

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How is that not what your supposed to do? If you're not racing, there's no need to heel toe. What's wrong with coming off the brake, giving it a little gas to match revs for second and then release the clutch?

tinyman392 said:

which would mean he can't rev match unless he double clutches (kind of overkill for a synchronized car).

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I've been driving manual for 10 years and I don't understand this statement. How does double clutching substitute for rev match? I thought double clutching was about getting the engine and transmission speed correct for going I to gear without synchro. What am I missing?

RedGiant217 said:

I've been driving manual for 10 years and I don't understand this statement. How does double clutching substitute for rev match? I thought double clutching was about getting the engine and transmission speed correct for going I to gear without synchro. What am I missing?

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The OP said that he thought that it was bad to hit the gas pedal while the clutch pedal was pressed in (I quoted it). I made a statement (my first post in this thread) that you certainly can hit the gas when the clutch pedal is pressed in, but later also made the statement that if you only want to hit the gas while the clutch pedal is not pressed, you have to double clutch to rev match.

Double clutching when down shifting is a rev matching technique where you hit the clutch shift to neutral, blip the throttle, hit the clutch to shift into the lower gear, then release the clutch. In an upshift, while double clutching you'd do the same thing, clutch, neutral, wait for revs to drop appropriately, clutch, gear, go. As I had stated, this is typically used for unsynchronized gearboxes, but can be done on any gearbox (though it's not necessary for synchronized gearboxes).

The other technique, which I generally use, is to clutch in, blip the throttle while shifting into the lower gear, and releasing the clutch pedal (I don't believe this has a name, I'll call it single clutch for the next sentence). In an upshift you'd clutch in, shift up while waiting for the revs to drop to the appropriate level and release the clutch pedal.

Then there is heel-toe which is done while you're on the brakes doing either a double clutch or single clutch where you use your heel to blip the throttle while your toes are on the brakes (some people reverse it using the heal on the brakes and toes on the throttle).

One major note is that you do technically do a rev match on the upshift, but that is technically done by waiting since the revs need to drop anyways. For example, if you're going 40 MPH in 3rd gear at about 3200 RPM (if memory serves) and shift into 4th gear, you'll want to wait for the revs to be approaching 2500 RPM (if memory serves) before releasing the clutch pedal in the Type R for a smooth upshift. This is technically rev matching though most people teaching manual don't teach it this way.

CTtypeR said:

yeah I agree. I've been driving stick for 10 years and I still get a little confused as to when this car will and won't rev match for me. If I was teaching someone on this car, I'd turn it off.

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The owners manual is pretty explicit about it. It will always rev match downshifts if > 2000 RPM and it will always rev match for a non-sequential downshift as long as you are not shifting into 1st gear. A sequential (in order/in sequence) shift is 6-5, 5-4, 4-3, and 3-2 while non sequential is anything that isn't that like 6-3, 5-2, 4-2, etc.

turn off the rev matching and learn to rev match for up and down shifts.
when you can do both without helps then you will thank me.
thats a skill that will allow you to drive just about anything manual.

tinyman392 said:

The owners manual is pretty explicit about it. It will always rev match downshifts if > 2000 RPM and it will always rev match for a non-sequential downshift as long as you are not shifting into 1st gear. A sequential (in order/in sequence) shift is 6-5, 5-4, 4-3, and 3-2 while non sequential is anything that isn't that like 6-3, 5-2, 4-2, etc.

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Right but it can still be confusing for someone learning when they probably still have to look at the tach to understand where the RPM's are. When it rev matches on its own 90% of the time, and then all of a sudden it doesn't, I could imagine that makes it harder to get a feel for it.

At the end of the day it's a manual transmission and you don't hit every shift perfectly. There's going to be some jerkiness. It's part of what makes doing it right feel rewarding. Especially during spirited driving.

RedGiant217 said:

How is that not what your supposed to do? If you're not racing, there's no need to heel toe. What's wrong with coming off the brake, giving it a little gas to match revs for second and then release the clutch?

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I was basically telling him to ride the clutch through the turn. Which you're not supposed to do (should be in the right gear before the turn) but it makes daily driving smoother.

caspar21 said:

wow, reading all this amazes me. i have been driving standard for the last 30 years and forgot what all goes into it.
i just do it without thinking so much that i would not be able to break it down like these guys.
good job.

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haha I was trying to play the jerking motions described in my head like never actually thought about it, but he's right

tinyman392 said:

It's all about getting into the pattern of the vehicle, and it will take time. Specifically dealing with the slight rev hang of this particular vehicle and the throttle response. That said, here are some answers:

1. If you jerk back then forward, then your RPMs are too low. If you're in 4th gear and shift to 2nd, your car should auto rev match if you give it time (it's a slow rev match, just keep the clutch in). It is a good idea to figure out what RPMs you should at when down shifting. For 40 MPH, for 3rd gear, it's just above 3200 RPM (I don't know 2nd gear off the top of my head since I don't do that shift enough). So, to go from 4th to 3rd going 40 MPH, you would want to clutch in, hit the gas (to answer your other question, yes, you can hit the gas with the clutch completely in) to raise the RPM to about 3100-3200 RPM, and release the clutch pedal when it hits that RPM range. This should lead to a very smooth downshift.
2. Quick note, if you're on a hill and have the brake engaged and you clutch in all the way, select your gear (1st), then release the brake, the car will hold itself on the hill for a second or two. You can get a smooth start this way as well. Though it can be useful to not rely on this feature; up to you. As for the jerking, if you're jerking forward (then back, or just forward), then you're releasing the clutch too early; if you're jerking backward (then forward), then you're releasing the clutch too late. Timing is key with all shifting. You'll have to get the timing and pattern down, it takes time, but you'll get used to it. Edit: if going uphill, it can be helpful to keep your RPM a little higher to create both higher torque and power to help guide you up the hill and keep momentum going. When going downhill it can be useful to keep a higher RPM to use more engine braking.

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I know this is an old post but does the 10th gen si have auto rev match too? I'm new to stick and the 10th gen si is my first stick and my downshifts are jerky as hell. I'm new so heel toe is not an option lol

sodiqo said:

I know this is an old post but does the 10th gen si have auto rev match too? I'm new to stick and the 10th gen si is my first stick and my downshifts are jerky as hell. I'm new so heel toe is not an option lol

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I don't think Si has auto Rev match.

That being said, you DO NOT need to heel and toe to learn how to Rev match.

You can practice Rev matching by first only worrying about the Rev matching.

You can do any of this while slowing down and coming to a stop, or while moving at a consistent speed to just try and match the rpm to your moving speed. I learned mostly while moving.

Basic idea of what is going on, clutch in, downshift, blip throttle, clutch out. Once you get good enough at it, all of this should happen in basically a single second.

Practice in 4th to 3rd gear at first for like a day until you understand what you need to do, that would be easiest I think.

The Si does not have auto rev matching. Even though I don't have an issue not having it, it would be a nice addition.

Something else to keep in mind with rev matching is the speed at which your are moving and how quickly you are slowing down. For quicker slow-downs, as you are downshifting through the gears, the revs will be progressively higher with each downshift , requiring more throttle input with each gear change to correctly rev match.

Practice, practice, practice to train the brain.

sodiqo said:

I know this is an old post but does the 10th gen si have auto rev match too? I'm new to stick and the 10th gen si is my first stick and my downshifts are jerky as hell. I'm new so heel toe is not an option lol

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Si does not have rev match. Heel toe isn't needed to rev match. But practice makes perfect with rev matching. You won't always be perfectly smooth, but the goal is to be as smooth as possible. I'd work on mastering that technique before attempting heel-toe.

Whenever you decide to start heel-toe, I do recommend getting a throttle spacer (like Acuity's) as that will make it more ergonomic to do it.

About Rev Matching, i actually know a lot of ppl driving manual for tens of years without ever rev-matching, and their transmission or synchro is still good at 100k+ miles. So, given the advance of technology and materials, maybe the synchro nowadays are more durable, idk. But, I'm saying this only for DD, definitely not suitable for racing.

.grimace said:

1) you need to add gas while the clutch is pressed down. If you are at 2000rpms in 4th and throw it into second you either need to add gas to get the rpms up to where they need to be (like 4000ish just guessing) or when you release that clutch the car will do it for you aka jerkiness. It's called rev matching

2) what RPM are you shifting at on a hill? You can bog the car down and make it jerk if you shift to early especially on a hill. I like to never let it go below 1500-2000 rpms so in first especially on a hill I'd shift no lower than 2500 rpms and only go to second don't skip to 3rd at such low RPMs or under a higher load like a hill. I think that is what you're asking?

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When going Uphill I notice on mine something would make a Clunky sound was giving it enough gas
Could it be motor mounts?