Farewell Civic, Hello Tesla

I see more Tesla's on the road than Type R's.

ManofGod1000 said:

Ummm, where are the door handles? Those things in the doors look decorative so how do you open the doors?

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Magic!

Actually, you push on the back part and the handle pops out. There are a few cars like this, Nissan GTR and some others I can’t recall. Not ideal ergonomics but not very annoying.

HSFBunny said:

That is a evasive method of measuring emissions that car companies use to paint a deceptive picture. If you charge a Tesla with a 1KW diesel generator, do you call that "zero emissions"? Of course not.

As soon as you plug an electric car into the electrical grid to charge it's battery, it is absolutely producing huge amounts of emissions. The emissions already occurred off site. The electricity coming out of your wall outlet isn't from magic. A power plant generates power. Your wall outlet is a transmission line. A battery stores power, and acts as part of the transmission line. The Tesla's electric motor coverts the stored power to kinetic force.

You can make an unbroken line of electrons from a coal burning power plant all the way to the Tesla's electric motor.

To be clear, I am not bashing on Telsa. I like the car. But the notion of zero emission electric cars is false.

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I have lots of data if you want it, but long story short, the electric grid is continually getting cleaner and that will directly relate to how many emissions an EV creates per mile. An ICE has a fixed emissions profile over its life.

If you want to poke at electric cars, it should be how energy intensive the battery manufacturing is. Resulting in a much higher CO2 footprint than ICE when new.

VW is putting a lot of effort into this (because they have to)

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/new...ill-be-a-pioneer-of-sustainable-mobility.html

Details of current vehicle CO2 footprint on slide 7
https://www.volkswagenag.com/presen..._INSIGHTS_Sustainable_E-Mobility_Keynotes.pdf

No one (except the uninformed) is trying to claim that EVs don’t impact the generation of emissions. However, the EV is the only viable pathway to get to a net zero emission in passenger vehicles in the future.

I've driven a Model 3. I wasn't too fond of the regenerative braking. It takes getting used too. You can't just coast like in an ICE car. Also, the car doesn't move forward when you take your foot off the brake. This can be enabled in the settings however, it's called "creep mode."

Civics4Ever said:

I see more Tesla's on the road than Type R's.

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I've still never seen a CTR in real life still. I've seen a handful of 3s, a couple roadsters and some Ss. That being said, until I see more Tesla's on the road then Pontiacs... or Oldsmobiles for that matter, I'll think of them as having "made it". It seemed a little touch and go for the company for a while last year, if the news was to be believed. If they keep chugging along, the next time gas spikes as it inevitably does ever so often, they may really take off.

Do extreme temps shorten battery life?

Hondaman_MI said:

Do extreme temps shorten battery life?

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Extreme temps can reduce the range of your EV because you need to power the heater or AC. However the actual life of the battery won’t be impacted because Tesla manages the temperature of the battery pack at all times with a liquid cooling/heating system. Nissan Leafs, on the other hand, are only air cooled batteries so their life rating is impacted when the weather gets hot/cold

You need solar panels on your house roof & charge the car during the day. Then it will be zero emissions.

totopo said:

Hmm, guess this doesn't include line losses. Didn't read it carefully, I should have just used the emission factor from (https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-calculator-calculations-and-references)

So at 1,559 lbs CO2/MWh it's at 74% of the C02 of the civic at the US average

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You also didn’t count the battery charge/discharge efficiency. It’s far from 100%. The faster you charge, the more heat loss.
Also, just manufacturing that massive battery made of thousands of cells costs energy and pollution and it doesn’t last forever.

So, I don’t count on any overall energy bonus of electric cars, but:

- they are better for crowded cities
- they have some fun factor different from an ICE car fun
- even with all the hurdles, Tesla made the most exciting electric car in the world that kicks the ass of anything made in Japan, Germany or anywhere else....

Victor1507 said:

Electric cars have no personality. The engine noise is what gives a car its personality. Teslas are overpriced golf carts.

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No I just talked to a buddy at work who got picked up in one and he said it’s got lot of torque and just throws you in you’re seat.

Victor1507 said:

Electric cars have no personality. The engine noise is what gives a car its personality. Teslas are overpriced golf carts.

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You can keep driving cars with personality... I'll enjoy the performance (There isn't an EV driving icon...)

HSFBunny said:

That is a evasive method of measuring emissions that car companies use to paint a deceptive picture. If you charge a Tesla with a 1KW diesel generator, do you call that "zero emissions"? Of course not.

As soon as you plug an electric car into the electrical grid to charge it's battery, it is absolutely producing huge amounts of emissions. The emissions already occurred off site. The electricity coming out of your wall outlet isn't from magic. A power plant generates power. Your wall outlet is a transmission line. A battery stores power, and acts as part of the transmission line. The Tesla's electric motor coverts the stored power to kinetic force.

You can make an unbroken line of electrons from a coal burning power plant all the way to the Tesla's electric motor.

To be clear, I am not bashing on Telsa. I like the car. But the notion of zero emission electric cars is false.

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The problem with your argument is that power plants (depend on the type) are always throwing co2 to the air. They produce electricity that isn't always used in the other end. It get lost.

An electric car uses some of that lost electricity and store it in a battery.
When it runs doesn't produce any emission. This means that doesn't add CO2 to atmosphere.
C02 is only concentrated on the power plant assuming is a plant that burns stuff. Isn't coming thru the pipes of an electric car because it doesn't have any.

NoelPR said:

The problem with your argument is that power plants (depend on the type) are always throwing co2 to the air. They produce electricity that isn't always used in the other end. It get lost.

An electric car uses some of that lost electricity and store it in a battery.
When it runs doesn't produce any emission. This means that doesn't add CO2 to atmosphere.
C02 is only concentrated on the power plant assuming is a plant that burns stuff. Isn't coming thru the pipes of an electric car because it doesn't have any.

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Power plants don't just continuously make electricity and throw it away. The output is closely matched to the overall demand. Using more electricity at one end necessitates power plants working a little harder on the other end. True, if more electricity generation switches to non-carbon sources, then the effective C02 generated by using an electric car, but the current mix in the US overall is not that good (see my previous posts).

Gruber said:

You also didn’t count the battery charge/discharge efficiency. It’s far from 100%. The faster you charge, the more heat loss.
Also, just manufacturing that massive battery made of thousands of cells costs energy and pollution and it doesn’t last forever.

So, I don’t count on any overall energy bonus of electric cars, but:

- they are better for crowded cities
- they have some fun factor different from an ICE car fun
- even with all the hurdles, Tesla made the most exciting electric car in the world that kicks the ass of anything made in Japan, Germany or anywhere else....

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Interesting point. So if these people are right: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-3-charging-efficiency.112857/ and let's be generous at about 85% charging efficiency.

Also, model 3's lose I believe about 1% of charge a day out of 75 kwh just sitting still for an aditional 273.75 kwh/year.

So if we go with an average 13,476 miles a year, the total C02 production for a whole year would be...

(13,476 mi * 26kwh/100miles / 85% efficiency + 273.75kwh) * 707g/kwh = 3,100 kg/year

which would be equivalent to 350 gallons of gas for an effective mpg of... 39 mpg. Oh? looks like it's pretty close to the civic now. You got any more confounding variables to add in? I guess temperature would affect it to for those cold weather folk, but cold weather affects gas engines too.

I guess it does beat out a competitor class car like a a BMW 340i at combined 26mpg

Edit: Oh snap, If you really cared about the environment but want some luxury, I guess the lexus EShybrid is a better car at 44 mpg. The model 3 should be more fun and is faster though.

It’s clear some people won’t want electric cars. That’s fine. The electrical grid is getting cleaner every year, so EVs will as well.

In other news, Tesla finally announced the $35k version and after tax rebate its $31250. And gas savings takes another few thousand off over the life. It’s getting really close to a civic touring.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/35000-tesla-model-3-available-now