full review, writeup, and installation steps: ctr subs, amp, center channel, and door speakers

ctrmofo said:

^^^ lol, yes you’ve confirmed all we’ve found thus far actually.


We’re more interested in your research for the 12-speaker Type R / Hatchback Sport Touring system here.

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The 10 and 12 speaker systems are very similar. They both have a head Unit with an external Honda Amp, and send Digital Audio data to that amp (maybe just simple 2 channel stereo ?) (along with some serial control, signals, + AMP enable). The Amp also has inputs for other analogue signal sources, such as Nav audio etc.

So effectively, the only difference in the 12 channel amp, is a couple of extra speaker outputs, for the real left/rIght Satellite speakers.

What is NOT clear to me at the moment, is where any Low/mid/high band filtering is taking place... in the head Unit before it is sent to the Amp, or in the AMP, before it s sent to the speakers. ( I suspect the AMP, to customize the output for each speaker type. Sub/Mid/Tweeter)

If the HU is only sending Unprocessed Digital Stereo data to the Amp, one has to wonder if its a standard universal format .. that would nice and open up some interesting non-oem Amp possibilities.

My calibrated Mic arrived today !!! so I am almost ready to do some serious quantitative testing. Main issue at the moment is how to inject the testing software's sweep frequency into the head unit, and distinguish between the characteristics of any Head Unit Processing, AMP processing, or such limiting audio characteristics, like crappy Bluetooth, or Bandwidth limited Mp3 data.
Maybe the answer is to Honda hack the test head unit, and then I can install the Frequency generating app directly on the head Unit.

Open to suggestions

AND BTW .. if you look at the Label on the external Honda Amp, it does specify 4 Ohm speaker loads. If the Civics SUB is really 2 ohm, the amp is probably going into current limit at higher volume setting, resulting in terrible distortion, ( and causing who know what effects to the other channel amplifiers in the unit)
before the level finally gets so high that the amp, trying to drive the 2 Ohm Sub, thermally shuts down with some internal thermal safety mechanism.... before it overheats too much & blows !!

The 3 surface mount AMP chips in the Honda Amp look pretty wimpy - next time I open it up, I will clean off the heat-sink compound, and find out what their part number is.
That will add an interesting input to the equation.

For those looking to do the center speaker upgrade with a JL Audio C2-350x speaker, we have a “speaker” pairing match marking list going. Since things are sold in pairs, people are hooking up with a partner to split the $100 50/50 since they only need 1 of each part.

No, this is not CTR Tinder lol...

man what an impressive 27 page read. thanks for all the reviews, and the in depth step by step process. i think i just wanna go with your final form in the trunk. and mirror all your door and tweeter/center dash speaker choices.

I installed the kicker sub and RF 500w amp last weekend. While it's definitely much louder, it sounds very boomy versus hard hitting. I'm also running through the LC2i and honestly haven't finished tweaking everything, but I'm wondering if this is due to the factory DSP rolling off the upper bass frequencies. I've seen it mentioned that tapping into one of the midrange speakers can get some of the higher frequency bass back to the sub. Any thoughts on this? The low end bass is so good and it feels like it has the power to hit very hard, but the higher frequencies seem pretty flat so far. I really feel like this is where the 8" should shine, so I'm hoping I just need to tweak it more or something.

Nitroturtle said:

I installed the kicker sub and RF 500w amp last weekend. While it's definitely much louder, it sounds very boomy versus hard hitting. I'm also running through the LC2i and honestly haven't finished tweaking everything, but I'm wondering if this is due to the factory DSP rolling off the upper bass frequencies. I've seen it mentioned that tapping into one of the midrange speakers can get some of the higher frequency bass back to the sub. Any thoughts on this? The low end bass is so good and it feels like it has the power to hit very hard, but the higher frequencies seem pretty flat so far. I really feel like this is where the 8" should shine, so I'm hoping I just need to tweak it more or something.

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yes, i believe if you haven't completed the tweaking, that's where you're getting the boominess like others have as well. once tuned properly it will be tighter. have you read my guide on tuning?

also you'll need to use a digital volt meter to measure the target voltage on the sub output of your amp. formula is as follow:

- take the rms wattage rating of your sub.
- times that by the impedance, this case 2 ohms of your sub.
- take the square root of that to get the target voltage you should be measuring at the output of the amp.

also your initial low pass filter should be set around 60-80 hz on the amp. proper low pass filter setting to blend in with the rest of the speaker changes the "boominess". i currently blend all my jl audio speakers with the jl sub at 80 hz on my jl amp shown.

ctrmofo said:

yes, i believe if you haven't completed the tweaking, that's where you're getting the boominess like others have as well. once tuned properly it will be tighter. have you read my guide on tuning?

also you'll need to use a digital volt meter to measure the target voltage on the sub output of your amp. formula is as follow:

- take the rms wattage rating of your sub.
- times that by the impedance, this case 2 ohms of your sub.
- take the square root of that to get the target voltage you should be measuring at the output of the amp.

also your initial low pass filter should be set around 60-80 hz on the amp. proper low pass filter setting to blend in with the rest of the speaker changes the "boominess". i currently blend all my jl audio speakers with the jl sub at 80 hz on my jl amp shown.

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But the SUB output from the Honda amp, has a -3db bandwidth points of 5Hz & 45Hz, so you are not going be passing on much above 50 Hz to your new Sub Amp, even if you set the sub amp to filter out above 80 Hz... it will be missing 50 - 80 Hz.
Your Sub should be good for at least 10-200Hz, but it is only getting 5Hz to 45 Hz, which is probably why it sounds so "Missing", and is just low frequency vibration, as opposed to low frequency hearable audio.

Not sure (yet) what the low cur off is of the door speaker amp channels, but you may do far better to use those as the source of your Sub Amp, and have the amp's low pass filter start rolling off at 150HZ - 200Hz (depending on your sub).

This also allows you to reduce the Bass to the door speakers, something that their cones will really appreciate.. and they will not "Rattle" so much

ctrmofo said:

yes, i believe if you haven't completed the tweaking, that's where you're getting the boominess like others have as well. once tuned properly it will be tighter. have you read my guide on tuning?

also you'll need to use a digital volt meter to measure the target voltage on the sub output of your amp. formula is as follow:

- take the rms wattage rating of your sub.
- times that by the impedance, this case 2 ohms of your sub.
- take the square root of that to get the target voltage you should be measuring at the output of the amp.

also your initial low pass filter should be set around 60-80 hz on the amp. proper low pass filter setting to blend in with the rest of the speaker changes the "boominess". i currently blend all my jl audio speakers with the jl sub at 80 hz on my jl amp shown.

Click to expand...

Yeah, honestly I was a little hesitant to even post about it because I figured I needed to mess with it more. I just haven't had time to spend on it, but I should here in the next few days. I *think* I've read all of your guides about it, and I know I need the sound file from RF to go through the tuning on the amp. I didn't know about measuring the voltage, so I'll get on doing that as well. I think it should be running at 1 ohm right, since I have the two voice coils running in parallel? I'll definitely have time to spend on it this weekend, so I'll report back on the results. Haven't really messed with car stereo stuff since back in high school, so I'm enjoying messing around with everything.

One other question I had for you, about the remote level control. I noticed you have it hooked into your amp, where as I have it hooked into the LC2i. What difference will this make? Should I connect that to the amp instead?

SCOPESYS said:

But the SUB output from the Honda amp, has a -3db bandwidth points of 5Hz & 45Hz, so you are not going be passing on much above 50 Hz to your new Sub Amp, even if you set the sub amp to filter out above 80 Hz... it will be missing 50 - 80 Hz.
Your Sub should be good for at least 10-200Hz, but it is only getting 5Hz to 45 Hz, which is probably why it sounds so "Missing", and is just low frequency vibration, as opposed to low frequency hearable audio.

Not sure (yet) what the low cur off is of the door speaker amp channels, but you may do far better to use those as the source of your Sub Amp, and have the amp's low pass filter start rolling off at 150HZ - 200Hz (depending on your sub).

This also allows you to reduce the Bass to the door speakers, something that their cones will really appreciate.. and they will not "Rattle" so much

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you're forgetting we are not passing directly from the stock sub signal to the amp. nearly everyone is using the lc2i to restore the low frequency signals (10hz to 1000 khz). so stock sub signal is fed into the high level input of the lc2i where the sub signal is restores. yes, i would agree that a broader input signal (to be tested) would be ideal. however, i've not taken a frequency measure at the output of the amp yet, but low pass filter adjustment has a huge difference within the 50-160 hz range when done at the amp.

so just to be clear - we're not feeding the amp directly with stock sub signal here. we're feeding the lc2i which then feed the new mono amp.

i'm not sure what rattling you're referring to. there is no rattling to speak of...at least not my jl audio speakers. keep in mind ALL my speakers (except 2 in the c-pillar on the ctr) have been upgraded to jl audio c2 series. it's the path most owners have also gone and no one has reported any rattling from the jl nor stock speakers for that matter.

Nitroturtle said:

Yeah, honestly I was a little hesitant to even post about it because I figured I needed to mess with it more. I just haven't had time to spend on it, but I should here in the next few days. I *think* I've read all of your guides about it, and I know I need the sound file from RF to go through the tuning on the amp. I didn't know about measuring the voltage, so I'll get on doing that as well. I think it should be running at 1 ohm right, since I have the two voice coils running in parallel? I'll definitely have time to spend on it this weekend, so I'll report back on the results. Haven't really messed with car stereo stuff since back in high school, so I'm enjoying messing around with everything.

One other question I had for you, about the remote level control. I noticed you have it hooked into your amp, where as I have it hooked into the LC2i. What difference will this make? Should I connect that to the amp instead?

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ok, been a while since i did the kicker sub test but yes if they're dual coils 2 ohms and running in parallel then your target formula should be for 1 ohms. take the kicker rms x 1 ohms then and take square root as your target voltage.

which remote did you get? the one from RF or from lc2i? they're different and same.

- lc2i's optional remote controls the bass level output from lc2i to the amp.

- rf's optional remote controls the bass level output from amp to your sub AND measures the amp's input clipping level.

in either case, it's best to connect the remote to the amp and control the amp's output to the sub ala "bass volume". reason being once you've already set and tune your lc2i and amp, changing the amp's input with the remote will also change the output target voltage that you've set to start with and don't want to do that.

ctrmofo said:

you're forgetting we are not passing directly from the stock sub signal to the amp. nearly everyone is using the lc2i to restore the low frequency signals (10hz to 1000 khz). so stock sub signal is fed into the high level input of the lc2i where the sub signal is restores. yes, i would agree that a broader input signal (to be tested) would be ideal. however, i've not taken a frequency measure at the output of the amp yet, but low pass filter adjustment has a huge difference within the 50-160 hz range when done at the amp.

so just to be clear - we're not feeding the amp directly with stock sub signal here. we're feeding the lc2i which then feed the new mono amp.

i'm not sure what rattling you're referring to. there is no rattling to speak of...at least not my jl audio speakers. keep in mind ALL my speakers (except 2 in the c-pillar on the ctr) have been upgraded to jl audio c2 series. it's the path most owners have also gone and no one has reported any rattling from the jl nor stock speakers for that matter.

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Thanks so much for the explanation.
I am new to this situation, and most of the information I have at the moment is from posts here on the forum.
I have started to take some measurements myself, now that I am finally set up to do so.
That's where I got the 5Hz-45Hz bandwidth figures from.. actually measuring them from the sub output of the 10 Speaker Honda Amp.

OK, I can see that you are feeding the Honda Amp Sub speaker output into a lc2i to try to restore some of the bass audio above 45 Hz, but I have to question how workable that is in practice, as the frequency inputs to the lc2i are so low in amplitude past about 60Hz, and at 80Hz and above are practically almost zero. Even with a lot of gain there, the signal to noise ratio must be very low.

However, I still have a lot to learn, and if it is working well for you and others with the lc2i, I am not fully understanding yet all this is practically going on.
I will be a lot more confident in discussing this, once I actually get some hard copy frequency response Plots down on paper, hopefully by this coming weekend.

Who know, by then I might be looking to get a lc2i

SCOPESYS said:

Thanks so much for the explanation.
I am new to this situation, and most of the information I have at the moment is from posts here on the forum.
I have started to take some measurements myself, now that I am finally set up to do so.
That's where I got the 5Hz-45Hz bandwidth figures from.. actually measuring them from the sub output of the 10 Speaker Honda Amp.

OK, I can see that you are feeding the Honda Amp Sub speaker output into a lc2i to try to restore some of the bass audio above 45 Hz, but I have to question how workable that is in practice, as the frequency inputs to the lc2i are so low in amplitude past about 60Hz, and at 80Hz and above are practically almost zero. Even with a lot of gain there, the signal to noise ratio must be very low.

However, I still have a lot to learn, and if it is working well for you and others with the lc2i, I am not fully understanding yet all this is practically going on.
I will be a lot more confident in discussing this, once I actually get some hard copy frequency response Plots down on paper, hopefully by this coming weekend.

Who know, by then I might be looking to get a lc2i

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yes, grab an lc2i and test to see how the other side or output comes out. i don't have the equipment to do so. it is my plan to change the input to the lc2i to the rear/c-pillar speaker on the right side which is closest to tap into. just haven't gotten around to it yet and want to see if there's is a change in the frequency range.

you pointed out a good point about the stock sub's signal it's putting out. here's my question though: if stock sub signal is putting out 45 hz, that seems rather odd. even the cheap stock sub can't be hitting at that low of a frequency based on it's simple paper design and cone surround. that boggles me that the pioneer stock sub would be filtering at 45 hz, right? what were your sub and bass settings at the head unit when you did that test?

ctrmofo said:

yes, grab an lc2i and test to see how the other side or output comes out. i don't have the equipment to do so. it is my plan to change the input to the lc2i to the rear/c-pillar speaker on the right side which is closest to tap into. just haven't gotten around to it yet and want to see if there's is a change in the frequency range.

you pointed out a good point about the stock sub's signal it's putting out. here's my question though: if stock sub signal is putting out 45 hz, that seems rather odd. even the cheap stock sub can't be hitting at that low of a frequency based on it's simple paper design and cone surround. that boggles me that the pioneer stock sub would be filtering at 45 hz, right? what were your sub and bass settings at the head unit when you did that test?

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LOL -- I order a Lc2i about 10 seconds after I made that last post.
I think it's called "putting your money where your mouth is"
Rather than theorize if it will work or not, I will try it myself, and then I can speak from personal experience.

here's my question though: if stock sub signal is putting out 45 hz, that seems rather odd. even the cheap stock sub can't be hitting at that low of a frequency based on it's simple paper design and cone surround.
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EXACTLY !!!. That may be why so many are saying the Premium system sucks .. no Bass, and muddly mid.

I have a HU + Amp set up on a test bench, with either 4ohm (2ohm sub) power resistor loads, or switchable to some reasonable enclosed (mid range car) speakers, including a mid price Sub. (not your $1000+ sub !! )

The sub I can FEEL, and SEE the cone move a massive amount, but there is hardly any audible sound from it .. just strong thuds !!
Rock Music, I can hear the Bass Guitar just, but feel it a lot more... ie a lot of the instrument's Fundamental, and ALL its harmonics are missing in the range 50Hz - 200Hz ( My test Sub is rated for 10Hz - 200Hz).

The Door speakers, I can see their cones limit in movement with the bass guitar... that sound should ideally NOT be driving the Mids into cone extension limit, but instead should be being sent to the Sub.

I must admit, I have not even LOOKED at the speakers in the car yet, but based on their wholesale price, I fully expect them to be "Rubbish"..
but 1st I want to make what is driving any replacement speakers is Balanced: to match those speaker's frequency ranges.



Look now little of bass instrument's frequencies you are getting in the Honda sub's 5Hz to 45Hz Range !! 10Hz to 200Hz would be far better for a sub , at least to get most of the Fundamentals. Pushing it to 300Hz might be even better.

ctrmofo said:

. it is my plan to change the input to the lc2i to the rear/c-pillar speaker on the right side which is closest to tap into. just haven't gotten around to it yet and want to see if there's is a change in the frequency range.

what were your sub and bass settings at the head unit when you did that test?

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Using the rear/c-pillar speaker as the input to the LC2i may make a world of difference !!

I had both Bass and Sub gain set to MID.
Not 100% sure if the BASS control has any effect on the sub ... will know for sure 100% in a few days

ctrmofo said:

ok, been a while since i did the kicker sub test but yes if they're dual coils 2 ohms and running in parallel then your target formula should be for 1 ohms. take the kicker rms x 1 ohms then and take square root as your target voltage.

which remote did you get? the one from RF or from lc2i? they're different and same.

- lc2i's optional remote controls the bass level output from lc2i to the amp.

- rf's optional remote controls the bass level output from amp to your sub AND measures the amp's input clipping level.

in either case, it's best to connect the remote to the amp and control the amp's output to the sub ala "bass volume". reason being once you've already set and tune your lc2i and amp, changing the amp's input with the remote will also change the output target voltage that you've set to start with and don't want to do that.

Click to expand...

I got the LC2i remote, thinking it would work for either, but that definitely isn't the case. Looks like the one I have is maybe RJ9 or RJ11 and RF is RJ45. Well, just ordered the RF remote so I'll see how that goes when it gets here. Also going to spend some time tuning this weekend, so I'll report back with the results.

Really looking forward to @SCOPESYS's results. It does sound like the upper frequencies are pretty muted compared to the low end. Definitely feels like the sub has a lot more in it.

Nitroturtle said:

I got the LC2i remote, thinking it would work for either, but that definitely isn't the case. Looks like the one I have is maybe RJ9 or RJ11 and RF is RJ45. Well, just ordered the RF remote so I'll see how that goes when it gets here. Also going to spend some time tuning this weekend, so I'll report back with the results.

Really looking forward to @SCOPESYS's results. It does sound like the upper frequencies are pretty muted compared to the low end. Definitely feels like the sub has a lot more in it.

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Ah that’s correct. RF is wider RJ45 whereas AC and JL use RJ11 thus with AC and JL can use regular phone cable if ever need replacement.