New to Forum: Million-Dollar Question

Spike Spiegel

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I’m not so sure about people saying they observe proper shifting technique, talk is cheap, whenever I have crunched 2nd gear it was 100% my lazy ass fault.
I've crunched three times going into 2nd and once going into 3rd and I believe they were mostly my fault. I do seem to have slightly more issues with this shifter than my older cars but if you're careful you won't grind.

I test drove a 2017 mazda 3 manual and it was basically perfect. While I like the Si shifter, the Mazda was slightly better. 2nd gear was like butter.
 
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Interesting, you are lucky!

I've driven multiple versions of the 3rd gen 3 extensively, I think you will be really happy with the Si in comparison. I am much more impressed with the Si after having it for about 6 months than I was on my initial test drive. Without a doubt, I would purchase (lease in my case) it again over a 3rd gen 3. And with heat the transmission is slick as butter (generally).

Still, I don't know what offers as good steering feel as my 2nd gen 3 with electric power steering everywhere these days, but the Honda's rack is satisfyingly quick.
That's encouraging, thanks.

My third-gen 3 Touring has wonderful steering, especially with summer performance tires. Notably faster ratio than the previous generation, with a feeling of micrometer-precise inputs.

In my brief test drive of the Si, the weight was okay but there wasn't the same dialed-in feel. Could be just a matter of familiarity.

How is the Si interior holding up? That was the other main area where I thought it was a little iffy. Hollow, flexy interior door panels, some cheap plastics, unconvincing plastic-aluminum trim and door latches, that natty fabric on the arm rests. Loved the climate knobs, though.
 

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That's encouraging, thanks.

My third-gen 3 Touring has wonderful steering, especially with summer performance tires. Notably faster ratio than the previous generation, with a feeling of micrometer-precise inputs.

In my brief test drive of the Si, the weight was okay but there wasn't the same dialed-in feel. Could be just a matter of familiarity.

How is the Si interior holding up? That was the other main area where I thought it was a little iffy. Hollow, flexy interior door panels, some cheap plastics, unconvincing plastic-aluminum trim and door latches, that natty fabric on the arm rests. Loved the climate knobs, though.
For sure - I realize now, I actually have not driven a manual version of the 3rd gen but I have had both the 2.0 and 2.5 (touring/grand touring) as loaner vehicles for extended periods of time while my 3 was in the shop.

The Si's steering overall is good -- unfortunately for us, Mazdas just have this certain feel to them that most manufacturers can't replicate, especially that amazing turn-in. The Si steering is very precise, but I agree it feels slightly vague compared to my 2nd-gen 3 (keep in-mind I am unfortunately on the not-so-great all seasons). After time I have adjusted to it, and I like that sport mode gives the car two distinct personalities. The car's positive traits outweigh the steering negatives (and steering feel is incredibly important to me). If it helps lend further context, I test drove an Elantra Sport for comparison, and while I didn't push it much, it had less feel and precision than the Si's rack. I've also had extensive seat time in a Lexus RC 350 F Sport and that car also does not steer as well as the Si.

I totally agree with you on your initial impressions of the interior, especially compared to a Mazda, which tend to have excellent materials/fit and finish. But there is something about the (imo) clean design and layout in the Honda, substantial and unique looking seats, along with some extra spaciousness, that to me now makes it feel more upscale. I also think the chassis feels substantially more solid than the 3rd gen 3, which likely contributes to that feeling. But there are places where they've "cheaped out," like the rear seat which is 98% hard black plastic, and the unconvincing trim.

My interior is holding up just fine. The only issue I experience is the inevitable "white spots" on the cloth from daily use (elbows, arms brushing it, etc.). Everyone has that issue and to me it is not a huge deal, but it is worth mentioning. Besides that, my interior still looks brand new. There are lots of nifty storage solutions that make it a nice place to be.

Sorry for the novel - hope that helps! At the end of the day, the Si is an amazing value and to me, feels like it's worth at least $5k more than the $25k price.
 
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charleswrivers

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The first Si, a '17, I test drove actually had issues with it's transmission. You had to fight it into gear. Funny, the salesman fought me on it, saying it was just new and asked if I knew how to drive a manual... to the point where I pulled over and told him he could drive back. It felt like it'd get stuck in it's present gear... then not want to engage in a different gear, either up or down. After we got back to the dealer, he drove it back to the service dept.

Even with rev hang tuned out, that heavy flywheel makes shifting quickly a bit more jerky than I'd like. I have ground second a few times driving quickly to where if I wanted to drag the car at a strip, I'd probably look into it more. There a touch of notchiness that I have 2 bottles of Amsoil MTF sitting in the garage to cure it (and I'm sure it will) but have been too lazy or busy with other projects (doing the starter on my GY6 still, got my last science lab today, etc. etc. etc.) to get around to it.

I think the flywheel is the biggest downfall to fast shifts.... though maybe that CDV may play into it. It's not bad enough to me, nor am I trying the use the car in such a manner, where it is failing me to dig into it. It's not very willing to shift very quickly. The few times I've used NLS to really wring it out, it took more force than I'd like to shift. I've probably only done that 3-4 times in 5 months since my TSP stage 1 reflash. No doubt it could be made perfect, but I think the flywheel would have to go. That, and I think the engine breaking is super low in such a low displacement engine. Our redline isn't super high, so the stroke has to be pretty average, so the pistons have to have a very small surface area, coupled with the coatings and low friction rings. You rev the engine and it seems like revs will never fall. Again, rev hang disable helps, but it's never all that great... in my opinion.

Still a great car, just a characteristic of it.

BTW, of all my Hondas/Acuras... this one has been the worst for rattles. On the flip side, it's also the quietest, other than the Odyssey. The quieter cabin may exacerbate hearing the rattles. Some if the panels in the interior seem to simply be loose. The cubby that was a 9th gen holdover they put the center console/shifting area over seemed poorly thought out and is an occasional rattle point as well. A pillars can be moved a lot by hand and are the worst points audibly for a rattle.
 


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For sure - I realize now, I actually have not driven a manual version of the 3rd gen but I have had both the 2.0 and 2.5 (touring/grand touring) as loaner vehicles for extended periods of time while my 3 was in the shop.

The Si's steering overall is good -- unfortunately for us, Mazdas just have this certain feel to them that most manufacturers can't replicate, especially that amazing turn-in. The Si steering is very precise, but I agree it feels slightly vague compared to my 2nd-gen 3 (keep in-mind I am unfortunately on the not-so-great all seasons). After time I have adjusted to it, and I like that sport mode gives the car two distinct personalities. The car's positive traits outweigh the steering negatives (and steering feel is incredibly important to me). If it helps lend further context, I test drove an Elantra Sport for comparison, and while I didn't push it much, it had less feel and precision than the Si's rack. I've also had extensive seat time in a Lexus RC 350 F Sport and that car also does not steer as well as the Si.

I totally agree with you on your initial impressions of the interior, especially compared to a Mazda, which tend to have excellent materials/fit and finish. But there is something about the (imo) clean design and layout in the Honda, substantial and unique looking seats, along with some extra spaciousness, that to me now makes it feel more upscale. I also think the chassis feels substantially more solid than the 3rd gen 3, which likely contributes to that feeling. But there are places where they've "cheaped out," like the rear seat which is 98% hard black plastic, and the unconvincing trim.

My interior is holding up just fine. The only issue I experience is the inevitable "white spots" on the cloth from daily use (elbows, arms brushing it, etc.). Everyone has that issue and to me it is not a huge deal, but it is worth mentioning. Besides that, my interior still looks brand new. There are lots of nifty storage solutions that make it a nice place to be.

Sorry for the novel - hope that helps! At the end of the day, the Si is an amazing value and to me, feels like it's worth at least $5k more than the $25k price.
Thanks for the insights. I drove the Elantra Sport, too. Really wanted to like it. The interior is beautiful in pictures, but in person the door trim was slab-shaped, monochromatic, and nasty to touch, the arm rest was rock-hard, the center screen looked two generations out of date, the leather felt thin, etc... When I got back in my Mazda 3 I felt like I'd moved up two classes. Slower than the Si, too. Still, with incentives I could've bought it, with DCT, for about $19k. But now with the facelift it's ugly outside, to boot.

Keeping my eye on the upcoming Forte GT -- same basic car with a more stylish interior design and piped-in induction noise, which I admit I kinda dig. Like the Elantra it has proper gauges with a Germanic LCD in between the tach and speedo that isn't wasted on mostly useless data like the Si's.

I like the Si's seats, though there will be an adjustment for the aggressive bolsters. My Mazda has black leatherette that's swampy about nine months out of the year and sticky all the time. If I can't get breathable, slick real leather I'd prefer cloth. The Si's pass-through for USB connection is nice. Undecided about the gauges, which have a far-away feel to them, plus I would prefer a full-length tach needle rather than just a stub on the perimeter.
 
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The first Si, a '17, I test drove actually had issues with it's transmission. You had to fight it into gear. Funny, the salesman fought me on it, saying it was just new and asked if I knew how to drive a manual... to the point where I pulled over and told him he could drive back. It felt like it'd get stuck in it's present gear... then not want to engage in a different gear, either up or down. After we got back to the dealer, he drove it back to the service dept.

Even with rev hang tuned out, that heavy flywheel makes shifting quickly a bit more jerky than I'd like. I have ground second a few times driving quickly to where if I wanted to drag the car at a strip, I'd probably look into it more. There a touch of notchiness that I have 2 bottles of Amsoil MTF sitting in the garage to cure it (and I'm sure it will) but have been too lazy or busy with other projects (doing the starter on my GY6 still, got my last science lab today, etc. etc. etc.) to get around to it.

I think the flywheel is the biggest downfall to fast shifts.... though maybe that CDV may play into it. It's not bad enough to me, nor am I trying the use the car in such a manner, where it is failing me to dig into it. It's not very willing to shift very quickly. The few times I've used NLS to really wring it out, it took more force than I'd like to shift. I've probably only done that 3-4 times in 5 months since my TSP stage 1 reflash. No doubt it could be made perfect, but I think the flywheel would have to go. That, and I think the engine breaking is super low in such a low displacement engine. Our redline isn't super high, so the stroke has to be pretty average, so the pistons have to have a very small surface area, coupled with the coatings and low friction rings. You rev the engine and it seems like revs will never fall. Again, rev hang disable helps, but it's never all that great... in my opinion.

Still a great car, just a characteristic of it.

BTW, of all my Hondas/Acuras... this one has been the worst for rattles. On the flip side, it's also the quietest, other than the Odyssey. The quieter cabin may exacerbate hearing the rattles. Some if the panels in the interior seem to simply be loose. The cubby that was a 9th gen holdover they put the center console/shifting area over seemed poorly thought out and is an occasional rattle point as well. A pillars can be moved a lot by hand and are the worst points audibly for a rattle.
During my test drive I got stuck between neutral and third at one point. True, I was babying it, but that's not exactly "positive engagement."
 

ablueSI

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Thanks for the insights. I drove the Elantra Sport, too. Really wanted to like it. The interior is beautiful in pictures, but in person the door trim was slab-shaped, monochromatic, and nasty to touch, the arm rest was rock-hard, the center screen looked two generations out of date, the leather felt thin, etc... When I got back in my Mazda 3 I felt like I'd moved up two classes. Slower than the Si, too. Still, with incentives I could've bought it, with DCT, for about $19k. But now with the facelift it's ugly outside, to boot.

Keeping my eye on the upcoming Forte GT -- same basic car with a more stylish interior design and piped-in induction noise, which I admit I kinda dig. Like the Elantra it has proper gauges with a Germanic LCD in between the tach and speedo that isn't wasted on mostly useless data like the Si's.

I like the Si's seats, though there will be an adjustment for the aggressive bolsters. My Mazda has black leatherette that's swampy about nine months out of the year and sticky all the time. If I can't get breathable, slick real leather I'd prefer cloth. The Si's pass-through for USB connection is nice. Undecided about the gauges, which have a far-away feel to them, plus I would prefer a full-length tach needle rather than just a stub on the perimeter.
Ha, from what you are saying I think we have very similar interior tastes. Totally agree on the Elantra interior, and I feel exactly the same about the SI tach needle, I’ve forced myself to get used to it. I do like the digi-dash overall though, mostly for music (full color display with album art is a bonus), and fuel economy.

I’d say the chassis rigidity is really what sold me on the Si in the end. I didn’t feel the same stiffness in the Elantra but the Forte GT may be a good alternative.
 

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The only gear that gives me "issues" is reverse.
 

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The only gear that gives me "issues" is reverse.
I'm not sure what issues you are having with reverse, but this is what I do when the shifter does not want to go in smoothly. While I'm at a complete stop with the clutch disengaged, I'll put the shifter into 1st gear first, and then back into reverse. I also never release my e-brake until I'm in gear. Hope this helps.
 


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I'm not sure what issues you are having with reverse, but this is what I do when the shifter does not want to go in smoothly. While I'm at a complete stop with the clutch disengaged, I'll put the shifter into 1st gear first, and then back into reverse. I also never release my e-brake until I'm in gear. Hope this helps.
The issue is just sometimes reverse requires a bit more effort than it should. Randomly it'll require me to shift back into neutral and try again and then it works as it should. Nbd
 

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Hello everyone. I don't own an Si but I have owned two in the past: an '02 and an '07. The 8th-gen's second gear got so crunchy after about 25k miles that I sold it and went into the Mazda camp, where I have been ever since.

Now I'm thinking about going back to Honda, and back to a manual transmission, after a pretty happy decade with three Mazda 3's. Only problem is ... it looks like that damn second gear is a problem again.

I have hunted down every "gear crunch" thread I could find on this forum and elsewhere. Sometimes it seems like I have to conclude that this is a fundamental engineering problem with the Civic transmission (or clutch), and that I should just stay away. I remember how frustrating the '07 became -- towards the end I would go 1-3 just to avoid that unpredictable torturous graaaauuunch from second. I want no more part of that nonsense.

Other times I tell myself that, well, you only hear from the people with problems, or that I'm going to be gentle on the hardware, or that mods/fluids/technique/model refresh solves the issue, so I should go for it.

So the million-dollar question is: which is it? What's the smart owner consensus? Is it a matter of when I get the crunch, not if, and then a battle to mitigate the symptoms for as long as I own the car (or until some class-action suit gets everybody a redesigned tranny)? Or is it a roll of the dice, with odds in my favor that I either won't have the problem or that it will be reasonably livable over tens of thousands of miles?

Thanks in advance for your input.
I have had no 2nd gear crunches in my '17 SI, 26,000 miles on it so far. Not counting a few missed shifts ( very few). So not an issue on this model at least. Speed shifting is not a strong point - if you are deliberate it will be fairly smooth and easy. Slamming it into gear not so much. It is actually faster to shift if you take that crucial beat. But as for grinding gears? Nah.
 

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Hello everyone. I don't own an Si but I have owned two in the past: an '02 and an '07. The 8th-gen's second gear got so crunchy after about 25k miles that I sold it and went into the Mazda camp, where I have been ever since.

...
Thanks in advance for your input.
If you have been in Mazda camp, you will not be happy with the shifts in Si. I had 9th gen Si and no crunchiness. I test drove the Mazda 3 HB and shifts were buttery smooth even on a new car. Si had notchiness to it and clutch feel wasn't good either (although Mazda felt similar - so may not be that bad). I think you should forget about the crunch and just test drive Si first (if you haven't already).
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