Do you think turbo charging the Si was the right direction for Honda?

Sal Bandini · Nov 20, 2018

Porsche turbo
Ferrari turbo
McLaren turbo
BMW turbo
Audi turbo
Mercedes Benz turbo
VW turbo
Hyundai turbo
Kia turbo
Ford turbo
.
.
.

Honda would've been stupid NOT to turbo their cars.

T_A_H · Nov 20, 2018

It's the direction of the industry

Not much of a choice anymore

averagetrackdriver · Nov 20, 2018

Sal Bandini said:
Porsche turbo
Ferrari turbo
McLaren turbo
BMW turbo
Audi turbo
Mercedes Benz turbo
VW turbo
Hyundai turbo
Kia turbo
Ford turbo
.
.
.

Honda would've been stupid NOT to turbo their cars.

Yeah, the industry is moving towards turbos--you're right. But let's think of this on an individual level: Just b/c many people say or do something, does it mean its the right decision for you? For me, I can think for myself. I don't need to follow the herd.

Case in point: Look at Porsche. They sell every 911 GT3 and GT3 RS they make with the NA 4.0 liter inline 6.

I think there's still a place for NA cars for years to come.

Monocacy · Nov 20, 2018

I have not driven older Si models but the turbo makes the current (2017) Si the perfect car for me. Sips gas when I'm commuting, which is most of the time. Pulls hard when getting on the highway or having fun on country roads. Broad power band means that the car does what I ask, even if I don't ask perfectly.

NoelPR · Nov 20, 2018

I owned a 2009 SI and drove multiple times my friends 17 SI.

2009 SI- great top end and sound engine.
2017 SI - great low end, suspension is amazing, sounds boring.

Honda didn't had a choice. Emissions rules pushed them to drop high rpm N/A engines.

amirza786 · Nov 20, 2018

TheKevinlyFather said:
I don't think anyone will say going turbo was a bad choice. Keeping it at 200hp, however, was a mistake in most people's minds. I believe 1/4 mile times drop over half a second from just a base map tune. Think Honda could have eeked out 225hp and put a better clutch in without jacking up the price of the car too much.

I read an article from an interview with one of the Honda Engineers basically saying the reason they tuned the 10th Gen Si with the current HP and torque is due to wanting the engine to last over 10 years and over 100K. They left room open for enthusiasts who wanted to burn the candle at both ends

Vincent@27WON · Nov 20, 2018

amirza786 said:
This is probably more of a question for those who owned or have driven previous generations of the Si. Did turbo charging the Si improve it, or should they just have kept it NA and improved on the existing engine? I have never driven any versions of the Si prior to the 10th gen, so I can't really speak on this, and am interested in finding out from prior gen Si owners if what Honda has done is an improvement or a step backwards.

Coming from a NA Toyota Camry SE V6 that has about 5 more hp than my Si, I am mixed about Honda's decision to go with a smaller turbo charged engine. For example, I find that power delivery from my Camry is smoother, more linear, and is available all the way thru the rpm range, while power delivery from my Si has to wait for boost to kick in, then it shoots like a rocket but tapers out quickly as it hits fuel cut off. This is really not a concern though, as the Si driving experience is very good, my main concern is reliability. Like my Camry, will my Si's engine be just as good 12 years later? Will I have change out a burned turbo, or some other engine component due to stresses on the smaller engine?

I guess the question should be more, was it wise for car makers in general to go with smaller, turbo charged engines and if this is actually an improvement? I would like to hear others opinions on this

In an overgeneralized statement, everyone is going turbocharged to meet EPA and emissions requirements. It's the easiest answer to how can I get improved MPG and meet the numbers while not having a super slow car. TOns of other factors but that's the trend. So in this case yes, it made sense. Plus they are fun.

dblotii · Nov 20, 2018

Sal Bandini said:
Bottom line - People buy horsepower but drive torque

I hate to get all technical on you all, but this is not true, unless by torque you mean torque at the axle, not at the engine. The transmission and final drive multiply torque; so you may feel you are "driving torque", but the only engine parameter that is directly proportinal to acceleration is power. This is proven by the equation of motion for a vehicle (any vehicle): Acceleration at any particualr instant is prortional to (Engine Power) / (vehicle speed)(vehcle mass). This is why performance meters work, they measure acceleration and compute power. They can not figure out what torque the engine is putting out unless you calculate it from the wheel diameter and the overall gear ratio. You can make up for a lack of low-end torque with gearing, but you can not make up for a lack of power with gearing.

Dave

Sal Bandini · Nov 20, 2018

dblotii said:
I hate to get all technical on you all, but this is not true, unless by torque you mean torque at the axle, not at the engine. The transmission and final drive multiply torque; so you may feel you are "driving torque", but the only engine parameter that is directly proportinal to acceleration is power. This is proven by the equation of motion for a vehicle (any vehicle): Acceleration at any particualr instant is prortional to (Engine Power) / (vehicle speed)(vehcle mass). This is why performance meters work, they measure acceleration and compute power. They can not figure out what torque the engine is putting out unless you calculate it from the wheel diameter and the overall gear ratio. You can make up for a lack of low-end torque with gearing, but you can not make up for a lack of power with gearing.

Dave

My quote means the following:

People love to get all worked up about HP numbers, how this car makes so much, how high it revs, etc. but in practicality they drive the torque. That means the 8th gen may have 200 HP and people flock to that number, but for day to day the same 200 HP out of Buick 3800 is more liveable, due to it's higher torque, especially at lower RPM.

JNRS · Nov 20, 2018

This is my first Si, so I can't comment on VTEC, but I believe the power band is actually pretty narrow in the current generation. You don't really get a surge of power until 2.5K RPM and it only last until roughly 4.5K. If you rev past that, you are just wasting your time. Also, as with most turbocharged engines, there is a bit of turbo lag, so you don't get that instant response when downshifting and punching it.

Don't get me wrong, its great for daily driving, but not when driving spiritedly. I prefer a NA engine over a turbocharged one. Unfortunately, NA vehicles are becoming harder to find.

amirza786 · Nov 20, 2018

JNRS said:
This is my first Si, so I can't comment on VTEC, but I believe the power band is actually pretty narrow in the current generation. You don't really get a surge of power until 2.5K RPM and it only last until roughly 4.5K. If you rev past that, you are just wasting your time. Also, as with most turbocharged engines, there is a bit of turbo lag, so you don't get that instant response when downshifting and punching it.

Don't get me wrong, its great for daily driving, but not when driving spiritedly. I prefer a NA engine over a turbocharged one. Unfortunately, NA vehicles are becoming harder to find.

Unfortunately to get the performance you are referring to in a NA engine you would have to move to a V6. My Toyota Camry SE 3.3L V6 has power delivered throughout the powerband, only limited by the transmission (and engine tuning). NA 4 cylinders such as the Toyota hatch and 86, Mazda Miata deliver great performance that is linear, but you have to rev the shit out of them. Off the line they may have some advantage, but once the Si boost kicks in they lose it. Also in the Si, all you have to do is shift into the next gear when you are getting near when the power stops delivering and you are golden again

Sal Bandini · Nov 20, 2018

amirza786 said:
Unfortunately to get the performance you are referring to in a NA engine you would have to move to a V6. My Toyota Camry SE 3.3L V6 has power delivered throughout the powerband, only limited by the transmission (and engine tuning). NA 4 cylinders such as the Toyota hatch and 86, Mazda Miata deliver great performance that is linear, but you have to rev the shit out of them. Off the line they may have some advantage, but once the Si boost kicks in they lose it. Also in the Si, all you have to do is shift into the next gear when you are getting near when the power stops delivering and you are golden again

Several months ago Car and Driver compared both current Accord models to both current Camry models: 1.5T to 4 banger and 2.0T to 6 cylinder.

Results: nearly identical acceleration times across both competitors.

amirza786 · Nov 20, 2018

Sal Bandini said:
Several months ago Car and Driver compared both current Accord models to both current Camry models: 1.5T to 4 banger and 2.0T to 6 cylinder.

Results: nearly identical acceleration times across both competitors.

The Camry has a 2.5L and the Accord has a 2.0L Turbo. The Camry has the much bigger engine, and the Accord has the Turbo. The Toyota Camry SE with 2.5L is 0-60 in 7.9 seconds and the Si with the 1.5L is 0-60 in about 6.5 seconds. The turbo in the Accord and the tuning makes it pretty much on par with the Accord V6, but people who have driven both feel the Accord V6 feels smoother

Sal Bandini · Nov 20, 2018

amirza786 said:
The Camry has a 2.5L and the Accord has a 2.0L Turbo. The Camry has the much bigger engine, and the Accord has the Turbo. The Toyota Camry SE with 2.5L is 0-60 in 7.9 seconds and the Si with the 1.5L is 0-60 in about 6.5 seconds. The turbo in the Accord and the tuning makes it pretty much on par with the Accord V6, but people who have driven both feel the Accord V6 feels smoother

No, it is 2.5L vs 1.5T and 3.5L vs 2.0T

amirza786 · Nov 20, 2018

Sal Bandini said:
No, it is 2.5L vs 1.5T and 3.5L vs 2.0T

Ok, got it

Do you think turbo charging the Si was the right direction for Honda?

Sal Bandini

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T_A_H

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