Civic Sport Hatch Autox in HS?

jwbrockman · Jul 13, 2018

Im not saying that your opinions are wrong or invalid, just that your car is not the one that Apexeight is considering, not the one that I started this thread about, and not the one that anyone choosing the car for the purpose of autocross would or should choose.

I'll take my cloth seats and fixed ratio transmission, I preferred them both on the test drive and they seem to work pretty well in the autocross we've done with it so far. Throttle response has not been an issue that significantly hinders its autocross performance.

ApexEight · Jul 13, 2018

@exyia, @jwbrockman didn't say to not consider the CVT at all, he was just giving his opinion, as he said "I also don't think you should really consider impressions of the Sport Touring (CVT)", and went on to share his reasoning and his experience between the two models. Your negative attitude is uncalled for, he obviously didn't mean to offend, so I don't think you should respond with such emotion. I appreciate the input from all, even if they go against each other, because it'll spawn discussion between both parties and ideally shed more light on the truth of the matter, but not when you reply with eyerolls, figuratively, and literally with your emoji.

Anyway, I don't want to to derail his thread any further, as I've received a lot of great responses, so I think we should let the thread continue as it was intended. Take things to PM if you really want to continue.

exyia · Jul 13, 2018

jwbrockman said:
Im not saying that r opinions are wrong or invalid, just that your car is not the one that Apexeight is considering, not the one that I started this thread about, and not the one that anyone choosing the car for the purpose of autocross would or should choose.

I'll take my cloth seats and fixed ratio transmission, I preferred them both on the test drive and they seem to work pretty well in the autocross we've done with it so far. Throttle response has not been an issue that significantly hinders its autocross performance.

Wait. Didn't @ApexEight state that the car wasn't the sole purpose of autox?

Let's follow how we even got here.

Apex asks people's opinion on whether the LSD was that important.

I say that it isn't. I share my opinion that there is so much artificial lag from the factory, the benefits from the LSD aren't as strong as they should be. The throttle and boost lag is the bigger detriment to the benefits of having an LSD. So that's my opinion, one that is even supported by your own statement:

jwbrockman said:
and the diff makes getting out of corners better. Not as much better as I expected, or rather the Sport is not as bad as I had feared.

Then I add the detail that I drive a Sport Touring for the purposes of adding context to comments about headroom with a helmet, as one has power seats, one does not.

And Apex also adds context that he is not looking for a pure autox car. He plans to add a KTuner basemap. So again, where the hell is that above comment coming from?

jwbrockman said:
not the one that anyone choosing the car for the purpose of autocross would or should choose.

ApexEight said:
3) Yeah, I won't be building this car for a certain class/to be competitive nationally, so I would definitely get a KTuner regardless if I went with an Si or Hatchback Sport, but I do autocross pretty frequently. Makes sense that the lack of LSD would be more apparent as you tune and unleash more power and torque.

Then your addition to the discussion is now it's because of the CVT. That you think the CVT is the reason for bad throttle response and it shouldn't be factored into the discussion.

I respond that that is such an ignorant observation based purely on the facts of how throttle response works in the context of boost. If transmission A and transmission B hold the same rpm on the engine, then the throttle response is the same. The culprit of the problem has to be remaining factor - the wastegate, which is controlled by the ECU. Hence, the factory tune is the biggest deterrent to best throttle response - not transmission.

I'd like to further highlight the very Civic Si in GS thread, early on in page 3:
https://www.civicx.com/threads/civic-si-in-gs.15695/page-3

So coming back to the original question #3.
3) Do you guys notice the lack of LSD much? Especially those with stickier tires.

No. I don't. Apparently jwbrockman doesn't either. I don't know why CVT's were brought up at all in this discussion. I brought up throttle response - I think it's bad and it's the reason why the LSD isn't that big of a difference. Jwbrockman disagrees and thinks the throttle response is fine - yet

jwbrockman said:
Ive autocrossed both my Sport and 5inn's car. His is better. Not as dramatically as I expected, but certainly better....and the diff makes getting out of corners better. Not as much better as I expected, or rather the Sport is not as bad as I had feared.

Looks like we answered ApexEight's question. I don't know why we had to bring up the idea of ignoring comments from a CVT driven Civic

5inn · Jul 13, 2018

exyia said:
oh please

1. I don't care how many people keep saying this - "I just slide around in leather!" - it's so ridiculous. The forces induced by autox-ing outweigh the friction from either leather and cloth. Toss any car into any corner, and any person is going to be tossed. Don't tell me that the friction from leather is so noticeable that it makes a huge difference in holding you down against ~0.8-1.0g's of force.

2. Oh whatever. A tiny TD02.5 turbo should not take as long as it does to respond to an engine pushing out exhaust gases at 6,000 rpm - regardless of what transmission it's connected to. Engine speed is engine speed. Honda heavily dampens boost for the sake of quelling "new engine, new reliability speculation" regardless of transmission choice, regardless of car, regardless of Si vs Hatchback.

KTuner's software is the only one to offer more aggressive boost ramping (and the option to remove it entirely) to bring back throttle response that should be there on such a small turbo. I've tried an Si. I've tried Hondata. I've tried KTuner. KTuner is what fixed the laggy transient throttle response...in a CVT...because when I command the CVT to hold RPMs with a paddle, it's not the problem. It's the factory tune.

Engine speed is engine speed. Exhaust gases are exhaust gases. Speed of those exhaust gases are dictated by engine speed. Speed of turbine wheels is dictated by exhaust gases and, more importantly, an ECU-controlled wastegate. A transmission only controls engine speed - and when those engine speeds are the same, the argument that "oh don't consider CVT part of this conversation" is just not connecting the dots.

Trying to discredit my and any other CVT owner's opinions just because it's a CVT is just ignorant and does nothing but hurt open discussion.

exyia said:
Wait. Didn't @ApexEight state that the car wasn't the sole purpose of autox?

Let's follow how we even got here.

Apex asks people's opinion on whether the LSD was that important.

I say that it isn't. I share my opinion that there is so much artificial lag from the factory, the benefits from the LSD aren't as strong as they should be. The throttle and boost lag is the bigger detriment to the benefits of having an LSD. So that's my opinion, one that is even supported by your own statement:

Then I add the detail that I drive a Sport Touring for the purposes of adding context to comments about headroom with a helmet, as one has power seats, one does not.

And Apex also adds context that he is not looking for a pure autox car. He plans to add a KTuner basemap. So again, where the hell is that above comment coming from?

Then your addition to the discussion is now it's because of the CVT. That you think the CVT is the reason for bad throttle response and it shouldn't be factored into the discussion.

I respond that that is such an ignorant observation based purely on the facts of how throttle response works in the context of boost. If transmission A and transmission B hold the same rpm on the engine, then the throttle response is the same. The culprit of the problem has to be remaining factor - the wastegate, which is controlled by the ECU. Hence, the factory tune is the biggest deterrent to best throttle response - not transmission.

I'd like to further highlight the very Civic Si in GS thread, early on in page 3:
https://www.civicx.com/threads/civic-si-in-gs.15695/page-3

So coming back to the original question #3.
3) Do you guys notice the lack of LSD much? Especially those with stickier tires.

No. I don't. Apparently jwbrockman doesn't either. I don't know why CVT's were brought up at all in this discussion. I brought up throttle response - I think it's bad and it's the reason why the LSD isn't that big of a difference. Jwbrockman disagrees and thinks the throttle response is fine - yet

Looks like we answered ApexEight's question. I don't know why we had to bring up the idea of ignoring comments from a CVT driven Civic

Lots to unpack here.

My thoughts:
Leather seats absolutely make a difference in friction.
Either civic can and will very easily obliterate the front tires if you put your foot down in a whole lot places on course at an autocross. Trying to launch the Sport at a ProSolo was funny coming from someone who's previous PS experience was in an STR S2000. Throttle response is more than adequate on the Sport and my Si. It's definitely 'touchier' on the Si in sport mode though.

I've read plenty of exiya's posts in the GS thread about how the car is lacking in throttle response stock, but I haven't seen that sentiment echoed. Whether this is due to the CVT or not, I don't know as I never driven a CVT civic. I have also yet to hear of anyone competitively autocrossing one.

BarracksSi · Jul 15, 2018

Re: sliding around in the seats --

Do what I do to lock yourself in:

1. Slide your seat all the way back
2. Exhale all the way, jam your butt into the bottom corner of the seat, press your back flat into the seatback
3. Reach up with your RIGHT hand and grab the seatbelt over your LEFT shoulder (opposite if you're in a right-hand-drive car)
4. Give the seatbelt a sharp TUG to engage the centrifugal safety lock
5. Holding the shoulder belt tight, slide your seat forward again until you can't move
6. ???
7. WIN

This was one of the first thing my instructor taught me. I've heard this trick called "the poor man's racing harness". When I do it, I'm thoroughly locked in, and I don't have to brace myself with my knees.

You can also get a CG-Lock if you can find one. It's a sliding doohickey that locks the lap belt without having to do the trick I described.

Vanimaniac · Jul 16, 2018

BarracksSi said:
Re: sliding around in the seats --

Do what I do to lock yourself in:

1. Slide your seat all the way back
2. Exhale all the way, jam your butt into the bottom corner of the seat, press your back flat into the seatback
3. Reach up with your RIGHT hand and grab the seatbelt over your LEFT shoulder (opposite if you're in a right-hand-drive car)
4. Give the seatbelt a sharp TUG to engage the centrifugal safety lock
5. Holding the shoulder belt tight, slide your seat forward again until you can't move
6. ???
7. WIN

This was one of the first thing my instructor taught me. I've heard this trick called "the poor man's racing harness". When I do it, I'm thoroughly locked in, and I don't have to brace myself with my knees.

You can also get a CG-Lock if you can find one. It's a sliding doohickey that locks the lap belt without having to do the trick I described.

I do this as well. Works pretty good. I also have used a simple belt or strap wrapped around my chest and the seat.

PedalFaster · Sep 23, 2018

Does anyone know if the stock Si or Type R shocks fit, and are dimensionally legal for, the Sport Hatch? Is there a way to force them to airways be in their firmer sport seeing since the Sport Hatch doesn't have switchable modes? (Or does it? I have yet to sit in one.)

BarracksSi · Sep 23, 2018

PedalFaster said:
Does anyone know if the stock Si or Type R shocks fit, and are dimensionally legal for, the Sport Hatch? Is there a way to force them to airways be in their firmer sport seeing since the Sport Hatch doesn't have switchable modes?

Dunno, except that since the Si springs fit, I'll bet the Si shocks also fit -- but I have no idea if they can be permanently set to Sport mode.

(Or does it [the Sport Hatch have switchable modes]? I have yet to sit in one.)

Nope. No mode-switching in any of the other Civics, including the Sport hatchbacks.

5inn · Sep 24, 2018

BarracksSi said:
Nope. No mode-switching in any of the other Civics, including the Sport hatchbacks.

As long as you don't count Eco

jwbrockman · Sep 24, 2018

You know you wish you had a “save me money” button in the si

BarracksSi · Sep 25, 2018

5inn said:
As long as you don't count Eco

I will not speak of any such emasculating factors.

PedalFaster · Sep 25, 2018

The Si's front shocks are $415 *each*.

That's a pricey experiment, especially without knowing if they can be forced into their firmer mode.

The part diagram for the Si's shocks looks similar to that for the Sport, but the Type R's looks totally different. Doesn't look like it would fit.

Sport

Si

Type R

Edit: Apparently Koni will be producing a shock "hopefully pretty soon", so waiting a bit would probably be a better idea than trying to reverse-engineer the Si shock inputs.

Burt · Nov 6, 2018

We had our last event of the year on Sunday and since my Miata is still in pieces I borrowed some 17" rpf1s and 245/40 Kuhmo V720s and sent it, and the car did surprisingly well. It could use a bit more dampening, but with 30-31 psi up front and 35-36 out back the car stayed fairly neutral and leaving it in 2nd and getting back into the power earlier than I normally would seemed to be the best way around wheel spin/torque steer. Coming from a CAM-C Camaro and Miatas, it was a pretty big learning curve, but the car worked pretty well, and I liked having actual headroom with a helmet on (I'm 6'2", it's normally a problem)

Has anybody run a 245/40 and 245/45 in the same tire to have a preference? If I but a set they'll just get run at events and on back roads, so I'm not worried about the OD for mileage/fuel economy, I'm more curious if anyone has a preference for autox gearing/power application.

Honda Civic 10th gen Civic Sport Hatch Autox in HS? 20181104_072147

jwbrockman · Nov 6, 2018

There’s plenty of room for 255s so I think that’s the way to go for the grip despite the gearing. The gearing advantage is pretty minimal anyway.

Burt · Nov 6, 2018

Probably so, I'm a little worried about diminishing returns going to a 255 on an 8" wheel, but I know a woman running 285s on a 9" front wheel in FS and she makes it work.

Civic Sport Hatch Autox in HS?

jwbrockman

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ApexEight

Senior Member

exyia

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5inn

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BarracksSi

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Vanimaniac

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PedalFaster

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BarracksSi

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5inn

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jwbrockman

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BarracksSi

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PedalFaster

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Burt

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jwbrockman

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Burt

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