Type r Tranny issues still?

Florence_NC said:

This part of your statement is true, all gears would be affected by a clutch issue. But there is a factor you are not considering here with your last sentence. There is more RPM drop between 1-2 than any other upshift. With each progressive gear the RPM drop becomes less and less, so less and less time is needed by the synchros to do their job.

Example with Type R numbers:
1st gear=3.625:1
2nd gear=2.115:1
3rd gear=1.529:1

So if you shift at 3625 RPM for an easy number, then the input shaft is doing 3625RPM while the output shaft is doing 1000 RPM.

When you shift into second, the output shaft, which is coupled directly to the wheels, maintains 1000 RPM, but the input shaft needs to slow down to match the new second gear ratio. That means when you slide the shift lever over and engage the cone of the synchro, it uses friction to slow down the input shaft to match the new second gear ratio. With this easy math that is 2115 RPM, resulting in an input shaft speed drop of:

3625 RPM-2115 RPM=1510 RPM drop.

Now if we take the engine to 3625 again (no more easy math) the input shaft is again at 3625 RPM but the output is now:

3625RPM/2.115=1714 RPM.

To shift into third, the input again has to be slowed by the synchro to match the third gear speed that goes with 1714 output shaft RPM. So input in third with output of 1714:

1714 RPMx1.529=2620 RPM

So for the 2-3 shift the synchros only had to slow down the 3625 RPM input speed to 2620 RPM, for a total drop of:

3625-2620=1005 RPM

In summary, the 1-2 shift requires an input shaft speed drop of 1510 RPM, while 2-3 requires only 1005 RPM. That means the synchros have to slow down the input shaft 50% more for the 1-2 shift that for the 2-3 shift. Since energy is velocity^2, the amount of energy dissipated by the synchros is a little more math-involved, but I quickly calculated it at 38% greater for the 1-2 than the 2-3. Someone feel free to verify that number, or any of my numbers for that matter. I did them quickly.

But regardless of the correct number, the point is there is more energy dissipated for 1-2 than for 2-3. Nothing happens instantaneously in a transmission, this includes the energy dissipation by the synchros. More energy dissipation requires more time for a given dissipation rate, so the 1-2 shift needs more time than the higher gears to do its job at a fixed dissipation rate. Or it needs a higher dissipation rate.

Going up into higher gears will see a continuing trend in speed drop and energy dissipation, with each successive change being smaller than the previous. So if you have a problem with the clutch disengagement time not being sufficient to allow the synchros to work, the problem will be the worst in lower gears, and show less trouble as you go into higher gears. Less engine drop results in less work by the synchro, less energy to dissipate, and less time required to perform such operation. And keep in mind that this function by the synchros is measured in milliseconds in high-performance applications.

So again, to stand behind my earlier statement, a small increase in clutch disengagement time COULD have a big effect in the perceived function of the transmission, depending on the exact nature of the problem within the system.

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so are you stating that the effects of a clutch not completely disengaging could present a rough or grind condition in just the 1-2 shift because the rpm drop quicker during that shift than any of the other upshifts?

so that would imply that if you waited long enough between the 1-2 shift to let the rpm of the input shaft drop to the same as the 2-3 shift, the still partially disengaged clutch wouldnt cause a grind like it doesnt in the 2-3 shift?

Lust said:

Do you know what could potentially be causing 1st gear lock outs? I'm also experiencing notchier shifts with time and borderline grinding 3rd...

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I am not experiencing the "lockouts" as everyone is calling them. So it is a bit tougher for me to form an opinion on that one. Can you describe exactly what is going on when this happens?

As for the notchier shifts, mine is actually doing the opposite. The more I drive it, the better it gets. Maybe things are breaking in, and maybe it is just me getting familiar with the car and developing better muscle memory for the task.

If you are having more "notchy" issue as mileage increases, there are several things that come to mind. One, you may have a linkage issue developing as more wear and tear is applied over time. I have not seen the actual mechanism of the shifter, so it makes it a bit tougher to extrapolate possibilities. But in general I would expect that a linkage issue would be more likely to only happen in certain situations like maybe only when you pull the shifter (2, 4, 6) or push it (1, 3, 5), or a pair of gears (1&2, 3&4, 5&6). If this is happening on all gears equally, then it has to be something that operates equally during all gear changes. I can only come up with maybe a detent, or maybe the lever pivot at the bottom. I tend to think that a shifter issue is not the source of the problem anyway.

I think it is more likely to be somewhere else, maybe internally in the trans. Again, it has to be something happening equally in all gears, so that narrows it down a bunch. Lubrication happens in all gears, although the synchros are different and I would not expect them to all act equally the same with a lubrication problem. Small differences in clearances and fitments should make them act at least slightly differently. I find this by itself to be unlikely, but not impossible.

You could have an input gear not freely spinning on the output shaft. If this happens, then that sticky gear could be trying to force the input shaft turn at the speed for that gear and not the speed that he synchros want it to turn. This would result in a meshing problem on all gears except the one that is sticky. I doubt this is the issue, because a gear not freely spinning would eventually seize and show itself as a bigger problem, or it it would wear away the clearance issue and free up over time.

One thing that does function exactly the same for every gear is the clutch. Over time, the pressure plate, the clutch disc, and the flywheel all warp and deform due to wear patterns. That wear and warpage takes away open clearance when the clutch is fully disengaged, so it is reducing the amount of pedal travel that allows the clutch to be fully disconnected. The synchros don't want to let you go into gear until they have done their job and matched speeds. You can force it, but it will push back against you until you apply enough force to overcome the synchro ramps. This would feel like notchiness, because there would be an extra amount of exertion required to get into each gear.

As an experiment, try paying attention to everything when you drive. Does the notchiness go away if you are very deliberate about pushing the clutch all the way to the floor? If you manual rev-match the engine, does the notchy feel go away and it falls right into gear then? Do you have the skills to shift without the clutch? If you can, then you can really feel the synchros doing their job and pushing back at you when you don't have the engine speed exactly matching. Does this level of force feel about the same as the notchiness you feel when you shift with the clutch?

BoostedSiCoupe said:

so are you stating that the effects of a clutch not completely disengaging could present a rough or grind condition in just the 1-2 shift because the rpm drop quicker during that shift than any of the other upshifts?

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I am saying that not fully disengaging, or not disengaging for long enough, could cause the issue. The issue is not exactly the RPM drop, but rather the increase in time required to achieve the RPM drop.

To illustrate this, let's throw some made-up, but still reasonably accurate numbers at this to make a point. There are going to be a lot of assumptions here, so please don't jump in with "But you didn't account for...". I am trying to keep this simple for now. So to the clutch model:

Assume that the clutch pedal swings 10 degrees from fully up to fully down. Maybe in the Type R it actually swings 5 degrees, or 15 degrees, I don't know. But a 10 degree assumption is close enough for this, and the math is easy.

Next assume that your leg can move that clutch pedal at a rate of 1 degree per 0.030 seconds. Assuming no pause at the bottom, that means it takes 0.300 seconds to push it down, and another 0.300 second to bring it back up. That is a total time of 0.600 seconds (600 millisecond= 500mS) to make one cycle of the clutch in a speed-shifting situation. I don't know the exact amount of time actuating a clutch would take, but this seems reasonably close, certainly well within an order of magnitude assumption.

Now assume that the clutch is at least partially engaged for 9 degrees of travel, or 90% of 600mS=540mS. This means that the clutch is only fully disengaged for the last 1 degree of travel at the floor. That is 10% of the total travel, thus 10% of the total time. Therefore the clutch is only fully disengaged for 60 milliseconds.

Now if we adjust the clutch as described in the previous video, let's assume we get only 1/4 degree additional travel. That means we have increased total time to 10.25x.030=307.5mS each way, or 615mS total. But all of the extra travel is added at the bottom. So we still have 540mS of engagement time, but now we have 75mS of disengagement time. A 15mS increase from 60mS to 75mS doesn't seem like a lot of time, but it is a 25% increase.

Now apply that to your question. What if the 1-2 shift needs 64mS for the synchros to work, but 2-3 only needs 56mS as I explained in an above post. Not a big difference, but this is a very binary function. Either it is enough time, or it isn't. The amount of time over or under the required is somewhat irrelevant. Either it shifts smoothly or it doesn't. So if you have a 60mS disengagement window and you need 63mS for 1-2, it will grind. But it won't grind for 2-3 because it only needs 57mS. A small difference in time required, but a big difference in how the trans functions. Adjust the clutch as above for more travel to 75mS and now it shifts all gears smoothly. Even if you adjusted it to get 66mS, only a 10% increase, you would likely see the problem go away.

so that would imply that if you waited long enough between the 1-2 shift to let the rpm of the input shaft drop to the same as the 2-3 shift, the still partially disengaged clutch wouldnt cause a grind like it doesnt in the 2-3 shift?

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I more or less covered this in the post before this. But yes, rev-matching will allow it to go into gear. If you can rev match well enough, you don't need a clutch to shift at all. That is why I asked that some people experiment to see if we can gather a bit of information across a number of cars. I only have information on one, mine. I have never even seen another Type R in person, so I certainly don't have access to another car to collect data.

Florence_NC said:

I am not experiencing the "lockouts" as everyone is calling them. So it is a bit tougher for me to form an opinion on that one. Can you describe exactly what is going on when this happens?

As for the notchier shifts, mine is actually doing the opposite. The more I drive it, the better it gets. Maybe things are breaking in, and maybe it is just me getting familiar with the car and developing better muscle memory for the task.

If you are having more "notchy" issue as mileage increases, there are several things that come to mind. One, you may have a linkage issue developing as more wear and tear is applied over time. I have not seen the actual mechanism of the shifter, so it makes it a bit tougher to extrapolate possibilities. But in general I would expect that a linkage issue would be more likely to only happen in certain situations like maybe only when you pull the shifter (2, 4, 6) or push it (1, 3, 5), or a pair of gears (1&2, 3&4, 5&6). If this is happening on all gears equally, then it has to be something that operates equally during all gear changes. I can only come up with maybe a detent, or maybe the lever pivot at the bottom. I tend to think that a shifter issue is not the source of the problem anyway.

I think it is more likely to be somewhere else, maybe internally in the trans. Again, it has to be something happening equally in all gears, so that narrows it down a bunch. Lubrication happens in all gears, although the synchros are different and I would not expect them to all act equally the same with a lubrication problem. Small differences in clearances and fitments should make them act at least slightly differently. I find this by itself to be unlikely, but not impossible.

You could have an input gear not freely spinning on the output shaft. If this happens, then that sticky gear could be trying to force the input shaft turn at the speed for that gear and not the speed that he synchros want it to turn. This would result in a meshing problem on all gears except the one that is sticky. I doubt this is the issue, because a gear not freely spinning would eventually seize and show itself as a bigger problem, or it it would wear away the clearance issue and free up over time.

One thing that does function exactly the same for every gear is the clutch. Over time, the pressure plate, the clutch disc, and the flywheel all warp and deform due to wear patterns. That wear and warpage takes away open clearance when the clutch is fully disengaged, so it is reducing the amount of pedal travel that allows the clutch to be fully disconnected. The synchros don't want to let you go into gear until they have done their job and matched speeds. You can force it, but it will push back against you until you apply enough force to overcome the synchro ramps. This would feel like notchiness, because there would be an extra amount of exertion required to get into each gear.

As an experiment, try paying attention to everything when you drive. Does the notchiness go away if you are very deliberate about pushing the clutch all the way to the floor? If you manual rev-match the engine, does the notchy feel go away and it falls right into gear then? Do you have the skills to shift without the clutch? If you can, then you can really feel the synchros doing their job and pushing back at you when you don't have the engine speed exactly matching. Does this level of force feel about the same as the notchiness you feel when you shift with the clutch?

Click to expand...

The lock out occurs randomly when driving. Happened to me in a drive through when I was completely stopped and trying to shift into first. The gear lever would go in about half way then stop. I could only get it into first by shifting in 2nd or 3rd first before going into 1st. The notchiness occurred after I mis shifted a couple times. I’m at 9,000 or so miles on Motul Gear 300 fluid. At first I thought it was just the fluids needing to be warmed up but even after 30 minutes of driving I get notchy shifts. The most noticeable is 3-4 but all gears are notchy now. For third I feel something noticeable different sometimes like the gear lever all of a sudden requires more force and I can feel something causing resistance. Not sure how to explain that one.

Edit: lockouts only happen when I’m at a complete stop and trying to shift into first. Lever only goes half way and I feel like there’s something blocking me from going in.

Downshifts where I rev match are butter in all gears. Upshifts are becoming considerably more notchy even when shifting deliberately

I don't get locked out of 1st but I do frequently get locked out of 4th when downshifting from 5th. Just like @Lust has said it feels like something blocks you from going into gear. I just won't go in. So I'll usually shift back into 3rd or 5th then back to 4th and it'll go in no problem.
I'm gonna retract my previous statement about 1st gear. I did get locked out one time at a redlight. Cars were honking at me. I had to do just like he did and shift it into another gear then back to 1st. That has only happened to me once though in the over 12.5k miles I've driven it. I probably get locked out of 4th about every other time I get in the car to drive.

Dragnet said:

I don't get locked out of 1st but I do frequently get locked out of 4th when downshifting from 5th. Just like @Lust has said it feels like something blocks you from going into gear. I just won't go in. So I'll usually shift back into 3rd or 5th then back to 4th and it'll go in no problem.
I'm gonna retract my previous statement about 1st gear. I did get locked out one time at a redlight. Cars were honking at me. I had to do just like he did and shift it into another gear then back to 1st. That has only happened to me once though in the over 12.5k miles I've driven it. I probably get locked out of 4th about every other time I get in the car to drive.

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I was getting locked out of 4th, same circumstances as yours. Changed to Amsoil Synchromesh, haven't had a 4th gear lockout since. I'm still notchy though on second and 4th gears. Florence_NC mentioned to take notice on everything....If I'm sitting at a light let's say with the clutch in and I go though all the gears, it's butter. Engage the clutch, start moving forward in 1st, and then shift down to second, I get the notchy/resistant shifting. It seems to become more apparent as the car gets warmer, as I drive more the issue is more pronounced. It's almost like something starts to expand from heat and things start to go downhill from there. I don't know if it's in my head, but it seems like when I go down a hill shifting is also better. Will check on that today when I drive home from work.

My 1-2 gear change is definitely notchy and require me to do that gear change slower in higher rpm, around 2.2k rpm it's pretty smooth and I can be kinda quick.

1st gear lockout, happens only if i'm slightly still rolling and try to put it in 1st without bliping the rpms a little in neutral, happened to me couple of times at the red light, but I think it's because I let off brake pedal, car rolled slightly and then I tried shifting into 1st.

I used to get a 4th gear lockout, but for last 5 months it's been pretty good, notchy, but it always goes in no problem. Until like 2 days ago, I was driving in 5th and had to slow down a bit, probably to about 3rd gear speed, so I go 5th->4th locked out->3rd, I was on my brakes throughout. Seems like to me it usually happened when in lower road speeds and maybe while braking.

I have Amsoil in my transmission and I adjusted my clutch pedal to remove that slack the pedal has for the first couple of mm of travel, only the master cylinder built in freeplay, similar to what people where doing to their s2000's. I also found some honda adjustment/measurement guides for the clutch pedal, haven't checked any measurements in my car to see how it compares yet.

So I am going to link a bunch of videos about synchronizers, blocker rings, etc. I don't think any of them have ALL of the information, parts breakdown, etc. But if you watch all of them, it is all there. The important thing everybody needs to get is why the synchro is called a "blocker ring". It has this name because that is exactly what it does: It blocks the synchronizer sleeve from trying to slide over and engage the clutching teeth (I hear them called all kinds of names like locking dogs, engagement teeth, etc) on the speed gear unless the speeds are properly matched. If you don't fully grasp this, keep watching, or find more books and/or videos and watch until you do. If you don't get this intricate set of complex functions, you won;t be able to grasp anything about what is really happening

Lockouts when sitting still: I don't really care about this one. All manual transmissions I have ever driven will do this at one time or another. If you are sitting stationary with the clutch pushed in and the trans in neutral, all of the shafts in the trans are stationary, no rotation. If you try and push the trans into a gear, any gear, and the alignment of the sleeve and speed gear are JUST RIGHT, the blocker ring is sitting in the exact position needed to do its job: block. The blocker ring is designed to prevent the two splines from going together until they rotate to the correct position, but because they are not rotating, they never align. The act of putting the trans into another gear (a gear not sitting in the exact blocking position) will cause the counter shaft to rotate slightly. Once the counter shaft moves, even a fraction, all of the gears are moved slightly along with it. Then when you go back into first again, you are no longer sitting in that exact blocker position and it goes into gear. Note that this could be the case in any gear, not just first. Also, if you do experience this, you can also go back to neutral, let the clutch out (which also causes the counter shaft to change position) and then go back to the floor, and it should go into gear then.

Lockouts when moving: This is a different issue. But if you understand how the blocker ring synchro system works, you might have a better understanding of what could be happening. If you watch the videos and fully understand the process, you will see that this is a highly choreographed dance of spring forces, friction forces, friction materials, spline taper angles, detent positions, clutching teeth geometry, etc. There are many component issues that could be causing the problem. Tolerances, material quality, assembly processes, improper machining processes, you name it. Trying to analyze a component problem would be impossible without disassembling a defective trans and seeing what is happening.

But to go back to something I said earlier, use a little bit of troubleshooting logic on this one. If there is a problem with, lets say a synchro ring, then that ring will only cause a problem on the one gear that it operates on. All the others will operate properly, unless one or more of the other gears also has some type of problem. The only things that come to mind that operate somewhat equally on all gears is the lubrication and the clutch.

And if the clutch is not fully disengaging, then the blocker ring will do its job and block the sleeve and, by mechanical connection, the shifter from going into gear. And it would/could do this in any gear, upshift or downshift. The more I think about this, pay attention to my car, and hear others troubles, the more I am liking the idea that maybe the issue here is a borderline clutch travel issue. Being borderline, some people may have it, some may not. Adjusting the clutch pedal to get that slightly increased travel has apparently fixed a lot of Civics, including 8th and 9th gens. It is not that hard to do with a couple of tools, so I am going to try it when I get a chance. I suggest some of the others with problems should try it as well. The we can gather a large enough pool of data to get an idea if this is really a fix or not.

Videos:

These also show some additional good stuff:

@Florence_NC Are you a mechanic? I undertand the basics but all the intricacies go over my head.

Dragnet said:

@Florence_NC Are you a mechanic? I undertand the basics but all the intricacies go over my head.

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I have been a mechanic, machinist, tuner, crew chief, design engineer, you name it. I have 3 engineering degrees, and I am currently working on my dissertation for my PhD in mechanical engineering focusing on experimental fluid dynamics. I have done a bit of all of it.

I am not, however, an expert on synchromesh transmissions. I do know the general design theories around how they work, but if you were to ask me how one should change the factor of some design parameter X to expect a performance change Y, I don't know how well I could answer that. Most of the competition vehicles I have worked with don't have synchro trannies.

Florence_NC said:

I have been a mechanic, machinist, tuner, crew chief, design engineer, you name it. I have 3 engineering degrees, and I am currently working on my dissertation for my PhD in mechanical engineering focusing on experimental fluid dynamics. I have done a bit of all of it.

I am not, however, an expert on synchromesh transmissions. I do know the general design theories around how they work, but if you were to ask me how one should change the factor of some design parameter X to expect a performance change Y, I don't know how well I could answer that. Most of the competition vehicles I have worked with don't have synchro trannies.

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Thanks for the videos, Florence. I had a reasonable conceptual understanding of how synchros work, but I had not seen the videos that you linked. I have not finished them yet, but even the first three are very illuminating. They have a lot more detail than the diagrams and more primitive videos I have seen.

Regarding what you were saying about your theory on the clutch engagement, I don't remember if anyone mentioned it, but on another thread, someone was noting his engagement point was close to the floor and asking if that was normal, which would really reduce the time of disengagement during a shift. I have not had any issues, and my engagement point is more like 75% of the way up.

Gansan said:

Thanks for the videos, Florence. I had a reasonable conceptual understanding of how synchros work, but I had not seen the videos that you linked. I have not finished them yet, but even the first three are very illuminating. They have a lot more detail than the diagrams and more primitive videos I have seen.

Regarding what you were saying about your theory on the clutch engagement, I don't remember if anyone mentioned it, but on another thread, someone was noting his engagement point was close to the floor and asking if that was normal, which would really reduce the time of disengagement during a shift. I have not had any issues, and my engagement point is more like 75% of the way up.

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You have to be careful what is meant by the term "engagement". The engagement process doesn't happen at a a point, it occurs across a range. It begins when the pressure plate & flywheel first begins to sandwich the clutch disc and create friction drag, and it ends when the throwout bearing has fully released the spring tension in the pressure plate and allows the pressure plate/flywheel assembly to create maximum clamping force. If you are saying 75% travel, then you are likely talking about when the clutch has fully locked up. But that is not the point in the stroke that is important to synchro operation.

In order for the synchros to be able to speed match, the clutch must be fully disengaged. If there is any clutch drag, then the engine speed is trying to drive the input shaft, fighting the synchros ability to speed match the input shaft.

To somewhat determine where the clutch engagement begins, put the car on level ground. Let the clutch out until you can just sense that the clutch is trying to pull the engine down and/or roll the car. Not actually roll the car, but just starting to apply torque to the wheels in an effort to roll the car. The actual point where the clutch will negatively affect the synchros is likely earlier than this, before you can even sense contact, but this is close as you can get without an actual measurement. On my car, this occurs maybe 1.5 inches off the floor. So I have a very narrow window of pedal travel where my clutch is fully disengaged.

Also, someone asked me about using a different trans fluid instead of Honda MTF. Here is the deal on that from the Magnusen-Moss Act, a set of laws passed by the US Congress in the 1970's that defines warranties in this country:

USC Title 15, Chap 50 Section 2302(c)

(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission.
No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if—

The Commision shall identify in the Federal Register, and permit public comment on, all applications for waiver of the prohibition of this subsection, and shall publish in the Federal Register its disposition of any such application, including the reasons therefor.
________________________________________________________________




The key part of this legalese is this:

...any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name...

This specifically states that the manufacturer/dealer can't require you to use any part or have any service performed by anyone, unless that maintenance is included in the sale price. As long as the parts (including fluids) satisfy their stated requirements, there is nothing they can do about it, and it doesn't void your warranty.

Some dealers and service managers are such pieces of shit. They will lie like a politician and never flinch for a second. I was reminded of this regularly as I searched for my Type R for 10 months.

Here is a bulletin from the Federal Trade Commision explaining how this specifically applies to vehicle warranties. They are the Federal enforcement body, and they specifically state that anyone can perform the service, including yourself, as long as the components you use satisfy the design requirements of the manufacturers original parts. And are properly installed. If you pour the trans fluid in the radiator and the coolant in the trans, your warranty will be voided.

Now specifically to the use of Amsoil, I can't answer that one. I can't find any fluid specifications from Honda on the trans fluid requirements, only a specification of their approved fluid. But unless Honda has a waiver as detailed in the above US Code Section 2302 (c1) or (c2), then they can't REQUIRE you to use Honda fluid. Any fluid meeting their specifications, which they conveniently don't make easy to find, is within your warranty requirements.

So if I were you, and I had a service rep telling you your warranty is voided by Amsoil, I would first try and avoid calling him a lying piece of shit con man, better suited to manage the used car lot. Then I would hit him with this FTC bulletin and the US Code. Then I would ask him if Honda has a waiver (as defined in the USC) allowing them to require the use of their fluid, then force him to provide the waiver in writing if he says "yes". If he says no, then require him to give you the full Honda specification requirements for the required fluid for the Type R, then tell you exactly what about Amsoil is outside of the Honda specifications for the fluid.

And before you go, print out the FTC bulletin and at least the page of the USC that applies, and highlight the specific passage in the USC I pointed out to make it easy to find. Also have handy the web address to find them quickly if needed. And if he starts telling you this again, video the entire interaction with your phone, from beginning to end. If he is going to lie, document it.

I will be anxiously awaiting a report on the outcome of this dialogue. And a post of the fluid requirements for the trans. Might as well get a set of requirements for every fluid in the vehicle and post it here while you are at. The whole multiple birds/one stone thing.