Civic Sport Hatch Autox in HS?

That’s awesome that you can go to Karwan for setup. 1/16 each side was what I was considering too although I’m afraid of what tire wear could be daily driving. Rear toe though huh? Bar on full stiff is not enough? Wondering if running 225’s rear would be something to consider. Although rotating tires is a nice option to have.

It’s probably enough really, I might want less bar at a more sweeper intensive site but Devens is pretty much transitions into transitions being a runway loop. I wouldn’t be surprised if I back off the bar at lincoln. I’m also coming from an STR S2000 (been about 10 years since I’ve run a FWD car regularly), so my desire for rotation might be more than most FWD drivers.

Also, Different Brian K doing the setup. Brian Kuehl knows his fwd though, he’s got jackets in EP and SMF in the past few years .

jwbrockman said:

It’s probably enough really, I might want less bar at a more sweeper intensive site but Devens is pretty much transitions into transitions being a runway loop. I wouldn’t be surprised if I back off the bar at lincoln. I’m also coming from an STR S2000 (been about 10 years since I’ve run a FWD car regularly), so my desire for rotation might be more than most FWD drivers.

Also, Different Brian K doing the setup. Brian Kuehl knows his fwd though, he’s got jackets in EP and SMF in the past few years .

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I’ve run against B Kuehl at nationals before. He’s the real deal. Good luck! Go fast!

So in case anyone was wondering.....the oem 400 treadware tires are absolutely horrible on slick asphalt.

I discovered this last fall. Not awful in pouring rain though .

Great thread. Just want to hop in with a few questions that I feel like you guys are the most qualified to answer:

1) Do you guys have issues with sliding around in the Hatchback Sport seats?

2) Any headroom issues with a helmet on?

3) Do you guys notice the lack of LSD much? Especially those with stickier tires.

Sincerely,
A guy desperately weighing the pros and cons of the Si vs Hatchback Sport (which I'm leaning toward)

I've autox'd both a decent amount.

1.) You definitely slide around more in the sport seats compared to the Si seats.

2.) Definitely more headroom in the sport compared to the Si due to the lack of sunroof.

3.) It's noticeable but not a terrible as I was expecting.

The biggest difference to me on course was the roll in the Sport compared to the Si (both with CTR bars). However, I've heard the karcepts bar helps as it is stiffer than the CTR bar.

ApexEight said:

Great thread. Just want to hop in with a few questions that I feel like you guys are the most qualified to answer:

1) Do you guys have issues with sliding around in the Hatchback Sport seats?

2) Any headroom issues with a helmet on?

3) Do you guys notice the lack of LSD much? Especially those with stickier tires.

Sincerely,
A guy desperately weighing the pros and cons of the Si vs Hatchback Sport (which I'm leaning toward)

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1. Of course, because you'll be thrown around in any OEM seat. No factory seat has tight enough bolsters to truly hold you still. I get thrown around in my Evo X. No OEM seat "holds you" around serious driving, no matter how many auto journalists say they do.

2. I'm 5'10" with an XXL helmet, and I have to have my seat on the lower end of the spectrum (I have power seats and sunroof), otherwise my helmet can brush against the roof when being tossed around

3. No. The factory tunes on these 1.5T's have so much artifical boost lag that there's hardly any torque that needs to be distributed on an LSD. I've already posted my experiences autox'ing that you can read. I commend anyone that likes autox'ing these cars on stock tunes, because they perform well - I just personally find it too frustrating to enjoy.

5inn said:

I've autox'd both a decent amount.

1.) You definitely slide around more in the sport seats compared to the Si seats.

2.) Definitely more headroom in the sport compared to the Si due to the lack of sunroof.

3.) It's noticeable but not a terrible as I was expecting.

The biggest difference to me on course was the roll in the Sport compared to the Si (both with CTR bars). However, I've heard the karcepts bar helps as it is stiffer than the CTR bar.

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1) Are the Sport seats bad? Do they go pretty low?

2) Yeah, I have an '08 Si right now, and with the seat as low as it can go and in a comfortable, upright position, I have to tilt my head to fit under the sunroof, which I don't like. Would much prefer no sunroof. The seating position isn't too bad in the '08 though, not too high, which I like.

3) I'll have to look into the Karcepts bar. Do you know of anyone on here that has upgraded the front sway bar on a Hatchback Sport?

Having driven both, do you think the Si is worth it over the Hatchback Sport? I just can't stand the look of the sedan, and much prefer the look and functionality of the Hatchback, plus it doesn't have a sunroof, is cheaper, etc. An LSD would still be nice to have though. I've also read the Si has better brakes. I don't know if they share the same calipers and it's just a matter of different pad compounds though, which I would upgrade in either case, as I would like to do HPDEs as well. And as far as the two motors go, it seems like they are the same, except the Si turbo has like a couple extra fins on the exhaust side, a different tune, and slightly harder rods, which I don't think will make or break my decision.

exyia said:

1. Of course, because you'll be thrown around in any OEM seat. No factory seat has tight enough bolsters to truly hold you still. I get thrown around in my Evo X. No OEM seat "holds you" around serious driving, no matter how many auto journalists say they do.

2. I'm 5'10" with an XXL helmet, and I have to have my seat on the lower end of the spectrum (I have power seats and sunroof), otherwise my helmet can brush against the roof when being tossed around

3. No. The factory tunes on these 1.5T's have so much artifical boost lag that there's hardly any torque that needs to be distributed on an LSD. I've already posted my experiences autox'ing that you can read. I commend anyone that likes autox'ing these cars on stock tunes, because they perform well - I just personally find it too frustrating to enjoy.

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1) No doubt, I was just wondering how they compare to the Si seats.

2) Do you have an Sport Touring? I'm 5'11' and wear an L helmet, and have to tilt my head to fit under the sunroof of my '08 Si sedan, despite having the seat low as possible.

3) Yeah, I won't be building this car for a certain class/to be competitive nationally, so I would definitely get a KTuner regardless if I went with an Si or Hatchback Sport, but I do autocross pretty frequently. Makes sense that the lack of LSD would be more apparent as you tune and unleash more power and torque.

Thanks and I'll go check out your write-up now.

Ive autocrossed both my Sport and 5inn's car. His is better. Not as dramatically as I expected, but certainly better. Much less roll, better seats, a hair more power, and the diff makes getting out of corners better. Not as much better as I expected, or rather the Sport is not as bad as I had feared. I think being able to run some pretty wide tires for the power level really helps in the case of both cars. Everything about the way my sport behaves is better with the Karcepts bar compared to the CTR bar. It was fast with the CTR bar but not as stable and tossable.

Really I think it comes down to which body style you need for an everyday car. I was replacing a Volvo wagon so I didn't really want to give up the hatchback. If you can live with a sedan or a coupe the Si is great. Right now if you are leasing they are about the same payment, if you are buying, the sport is a couple grand cheaper but the equipment in the Si is worth the difference. For me the versatility and the Sonic Grey pushed me toward the hatch, but I think both are a great choice as a DD/weekend autocrosser. They are both great cars to live with and I think they can both get it done in their respective classes, the Sport in HS maybe slightly more so than the Si in GS.

ApexEight said:

1) Are the Sport seats bad? Do they go pretty low?
The Sport seats aren't as bad as say the non-recaro Fiesta ST seats, but are not as bolstered as the Si. They go plenty low enough IMO. Plenty of headroom for me at ~6' in the Sport.
2) Yeah, I have an '08 Si right now, and with the seat as low as it can go and in a comfortable, upright position, I have to tilt my head to fit under the sunroof, which I don't like. Would much prefer no sunroof. The seating position isn't too bad in the '08 though, not too high, which I like.

In the Si I have to recline the seat one click to fit with the sunroof, otherwise the top of my helmet touches (barely) on the roof near where the sunvisor is.
3) I'll have to look into the Karcepts bar. Do you know of anyone on here that has upgraded the front sway bar on a Hatchback Sport?
I don't know any autocrossers who have upgraded the front sway bar as in HStreet, you can only upgrade one and the rear seems to be the way to go.
Having driven both, do you think the Si is worth it over the Hatchback Sport? I just can't stand the look of the sedan, and much prefer the look and functionality of the Hatchback, plus it doesn't have a sunroof, is cheaper, etc. An LSD would still be nice to have though. I've also read the Si has better brakes. I don't know if they share the same calipers and it's just a matter of different pad compounds though, which I would upgrade in either case, as I would like to do HPDEs as well. And as far as the two motors go, it seems like they are the same, except the Si turbo has like a couple extra fins on the exhaust side, a different tune, and slightly harder rods, which I don't think will make or break my decision.

As JW said, it depends on what you want. The Si does have bigger brakes, I believe I read they are the same ones found on the Accord Sport. The engines are very similar, but I do feel more power in the Si. I think the power is more noticeable on the street.

I wanted some of the niceities that the Sport didn't offer (Carplay/fob/LSD/heated seats) so I went with the Si. I don't think you can go wrong with either, but I recommend driving both.

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See answers above in bold.

ApexEight said:

1) No doubt, I was just wondering how they compare to the Si seats.

2) Do you have an Sport Touring? I'm 5'11' and wear an L helmet, and have to tilt my head to fit under the sunroof of my '08 Si sedan, despite having the seat low as possible.

3) Yeah, I won't be building this car for a certain class/to be competitive nationally, so I would definitely get a KTuner regardless if I went with an Si or Hatchback Sport, but I do autocross pretty frequently. Makes sense that the lack of LSD would be more apparent as you tune and unleash more power and torque.

Thanks and I'll go check out your write-up now.

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1) While I'm sure they hold you better, my biggest gripe is still that they're all cheap cloth. I think they're overrated /shrug. You get some cool suede accents and different textures on some other seats that make them more interesting/cooler. I mentioned my Evo X because everyone loves those Recaros, but I get tossed around in those...so hence I think picking between OEM seats is a matter of styling and comfort - they're all "meh" when it comes to actually holding you down.

2) Yes, a Sport Touring. I'd say just take your helmet to the dealership next time, because I can't remember if the Si manual adjustment on the seats go as low as the power ones

3) That's just a personal judgment then. How far on the spectrum does winning an autox event compare to having the utility of the hatchback everyday?

I've posted very vocally on these forums about how I feel on this generation Si. I'm still sitting here 100% ready to trade in on an Si or hell even an Accord, but I'm still driving my hatch. That's as much as I want to say, I don't want to re-hash what I've already posted.

I'm 5'8" and I have no helmet clearance issues in the sport hatch. I brought my helmet to the test drive. Only autocrossed once on the all seasons on a super slick asphalt site. I was all over the place in the seat. Luckily I was going so slow it wasn't that big of a deal.

I'm glad the Si and Sport seats are both cloth, I'm tired of paying more for seats that are cold in the winter and hot in the summer that you just slide around on when you drive hard. The cloth on the sport seats seems like it will hold up fine and has been easy to keep clean, maybe less impressed with the quality of the foam. As 5inn says, they're much better than the non-recaro Focus/Fiesta ST seats.

I also don't think you should really consider impressions of the Sport Touring (CVT) part of this conversation. I drove a CVT model when I was buying mine and while I think it is fine for everyday use the lag between throttle application and acceleration was huge compared to the manual car. The manual isn't the most throttle responsive car I've driven but its clear that either the CVT itself kills response or the CVT cars are doing something very different with throttle tuning. This was less noticeable on straight line acceleration from a launch but very noticeable in the typical on/off/part throttle type variations like you see constantly during an autocross.

jwbrockman said:

I'm glad the Si and Sport seats are both cloth, I'm tired of paying more for seats that are cold in the winter and hot in the summer that you just slide around on when you drive hard. The cloth on the sport seats seems like it will hold up fine and has been easy to keep clean, maybe less impressed with the quality of the foam. As 5inn says, they're much better than the non-recaro Focus/Fiesta ST seats.

I also don't think you should really consider impressions of the Sport Touring (CVT) part of this conversation. I drove a CVT model when I was buying mine and while I think it is fine for everyday use the lag between throttle application and acceleration was huge compared to the manual car. The manual isn't the most throttle responsive car I've driven but its clear that either the CVT itself kills response or the CVT cars are doing something very different with throttle tuning. This was less noticeable on straight line acceleration from a launch but very noticeable in the typical on/off/part throttle type variations like you see constantly during an autocross.

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oh please

1. I don't care how many people keep saying this - "I just slide around in leather!" - it's so ridiculous. The forces induced by autox-ing outweigh the friction from either leather and cloth. Toss any car into any corner, and any person is going to be tossed. Don't tell me that the friction from leather is so noticeable that it makes a huge difference in holding you down against ~0.8-1.0g's of force.

2. Oh whatever. A tiny TD02.5 turbo should not take as long as it does to respond to an engine pushing out exhaust gases at 6,000 rpm - regardless of what transmission it's connected to. Engine speed is engine speed. Honda heavily dampens boost for the sake of quelling "new engine, new reliability speculation" regardless of transmission choice, regardless of car, regardless of Si vs Hatchback.

KTuner's software is the only one to offer more aggressive boost ramping (and the option to remove it entirely) to bring back throttle response that should be there on such a small turbo. I've tried an Si. I've tried Hondata. I've tried KTuner. KTuner is what fixed the laggy transient throttle response...in a CVT...because when I command the CVT to hold RPMs with a paddle, it's not the problem. It's the factory tune.

Engine speed is engine speed. Exhaust gases are exhaust gases. Speed of those exhaust gases are dictated by engine speed. Speed of turbine wheels is dictated by exhaust gases and, more importantly, an ECU-controlled wastegate. A transmission only controls engine speed - and when those engine speeds are the same, the argument that "oh don't consider CVT part of this conversation" is just not connecting the dots.

Trying to discredit my and any other CVT owner's opinions just because it's a CVT is just ignorant and does nothing but hurt open discussion.