The Infamous 2nd Gear Crunch

I work at a dealer and a lot of times the same engine is in different models and have completely different problems.. thats just the point of view im seeing it at. I really hope its that easy of a fix. But still taking it to the dealer is the best route. This problem is a defect somewhere. where it lies i dont know. Seems at this time transmission replacement is hondas go to. Not trying to bash you.. we are team here

Turbo R said:

Did you guys miss the post a page or so back where the guy in the UK said this was a common issue on the FK2?

It's has nothing to do with the transmission itself. It's due to the downpipe being so close to the Clutch Slave cylinder and during track/aggressive driving it gets the fluid hot enough to boil it. Thus introducing bubbles in the line, when you press down the clutch pedal it is not dis-engaging completely causing a grind. Once you grind a gear hard enough 1-2 times the syncros can be damaged and then it will begin to grind at all RPMs.

This is why when you take it to the dealership they cannot recreate it. A short test drive will not put enough heat into it to cause it to happen.

TLR- Downpipe is boiling stock fluid in hydraulic clutch system. Simply drain the fluid and replace it with something with a higher boiling point will fix it. And for an added piece of mind you can make a small heat shield to insulate it further.

https://www.amazon.com/Motul-8068HL-Factory-Percent-Synthetic/dp/B004LEYJO4 - Something like this will do just fine.

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nobody ignored this but i can promise you this is not the cause... you think its due to overheating fluid? okay then tell me why quite literally 90% of the time it has happened to me is when the vehicle is cold? personally i have noticed it happen when im pulling out from work, and the vehicle is far from hot. not even warmed up. it was an interesting thought but not the cause of this problem. at least not it our case. also honda is not stupid, they wouldn't be instructing us to put transmissions in these cars (msrp $3,500) if they could fix it with a little heat wrap or something much more simple.

now again im also skeptical a trans will fix this issue but quite simply that big rant and rave post didnt do anyone any favors. i appreciate the effort and i appreciate when he posted the information about the fk2 but there is much more at work here

There are many pages now. So let me get this straight. Now that it's pretty much confirm I have the gear grinding issue like many of you, I just report to my nearest dealer so that they can log down the issue, and that's it? Should I contact any Honda rep or someone "higher up"? And if so, who would this person be? Just wanna get this right so the dealer doesn't just turn me away like I'm making some stuff up lol.

Ruckus said:

nobody ignored this but i can promise you this is not the cause... you think its due to overheating fluid? okay then tell me why quite literally 90% of the time it has happened to me is when the vehicle is cold? personally i have noticed it happen when im pulling out from work, and the vehicle is far from hot. not even warmed up. it was an interesting thought but not the cause of this problem. at least not it our case. also honda is not stupid, they wouldn't be instructing us to put transmissions in these cars (msrp $3,500) if they could fix it with a little heat wrap or something much more simple.

now again im also skeptical a trans will fix this issue but quite simply that big rant and rave post didnt do anyone any favors. i appreciate the effort and i appreciate when he posted the information about the fk2 but there is much more at work here

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You took the words out of my mouth as I was fixing to reply too.

Out of the 12-13 times it has happened to me in 1,200 miles - only 1-2 were when the engine was "hot".

iforyou said:

There are many pages now. So let me get this straight. Now that it's pretty much confirm I have the gear grinding issue like many of you, I just report to my nearest dealer so that they can log down the issue, and that's it? Should I contact any Honda rep or someone "higher up"? And if so, who would this person be? Just wanna get this right so the dealer doesn't just turn me away like I'm making some stuff up lol.

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take it to your local dealer and explain whats happening. they will most likely want to test drive the vehicle and i suggest you go with and explain to them that is most likely wont act up. insist that they start a "techline case" on this issue. the more reported cases they see the more they look into the problem. as of right now though they are basically recommended replacement of the trans.

Froggie3kb said:

You took the words out of my mouth as I was fixing to reply too.

Out of the 12-13 times it has happened to me in 1,200 miles - only 1-2 were when the engine was "hot".

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right on man! i wasnt trying to come off as an asshole i just didnt like they way he was attacking us as if i dont check into anything on this thread. literally been dealing techline and field techs on this issue since day one and if they had a much simpler suggestion for me than trans replacement i would gladly try it out and inform everybody else about it.

Ok so I haven't had the second gear grind yet, but my shifter sometimes feels like it goes through another bump (when going from 1st to N to 2nd) so it comes of as crunchy feeling when engaging in 2nd gear.

So I was thinking, maybe there's a bushing or some lever in the system that's loose, not assembled correctly or worn out, that's causing the gear not going in fully and resulting in a gear grind.

Another thing to check is Clutch Master Cylinder Delay Valve, or if it even exists in CTR.

Ruckus said:

nobody ignored this but i can promise you this is not the cause... you think its due to overheating fluid? okay then tell me why quite literally 90% of the time it has happened to me is when the vehicle is cold? personally i have noticed it happen when im pulling out from work, and the vehicle is far from hot. not even warmed up. it was an interesting thought but not the cause of this problem. at least not it our case. also honda is not stupid, they wouldn't be instructing us to put transmissions in these cars (msrp $3,500) if they could fix it with a little heat wrap or something much more simple.

now again im also skeptical a trans will fix this issue but quite simply that big rant and rave post didnt do anyone any favors. i appreciate the effort and i appreciate when he posted the information about the fk2 but there is much more at work here

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Ruckus said:

right on man! i wasnt trying to come off as an asshole i just didnt like they way he was attacking us as if i dont check into anything on this thread. literally been dealing techline and field techs on this issue since day one and if they had a much simpler suggestion for me than trans replacement i would gladly try it out and inform everybody else about it.

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I don't get how you feel i was attacking or ranting and raving. I'm just trying to help explain it.

The reason your car grinds when its cold is because the syncros are gone. Again like i said in my first post. Once you grind a gear a few hard times then they are damaged and it will grind all the time. It just mechanically how they work.

It makes sense to me, most people do not experience this issue for the first time until they have put some solid heat in the car. Causing the clutch to not disengage and you grind the gear a few times destroying the syncro. Once it is damaged enough it will grind even with proper operation of the clutch.

As for the people who experience it intermittently my assumption is their syncros are on their way out but not fully gone.

This is just one hypothesis that makes sense to me.

Turbo R said:

I don't get how you feel i was attacking or ranting and raving. I'm just trying to help explain it.

The reason your car grinds when its cold is because the syncros are gone. Again like i said in my first post. Once you grind a gear a few hard times then they are damaged and it will grind all the time. It just mechanically how they work.

It makes sense to me, most people do not experience this issue for the first time until they have put some solid heat in the car. Causing the clutch to not disengage and you grind the gear a few times destroying the syncro. Once it is damaged enough it will grind even with proper operation of the clutch.

As for the people who experience it intermittently my assumption is their syncros are on their way out but not fully gone.

This is just one hypothesis that makes sense to me.

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I just hope the replacement tranny is a solid fix...I just don't want a situation where we'll see "if this new tranny is better". Does anyone know who manufacture this tranny? Honda? Getrag?

@baldheadracing have you experienced any grinds? You got those upgraded bushings didn't you?

NorthernEX-T said:

@baldheadracing have you experienced any grinds? You got those upgraded bushings didn't you?

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No grinding here, except a couple times when I screwed up a 5-4-3 downshift. Changing bushings wouldn't/shouldn't make a difference to grinding. Grinding is typically a consequence of a clutch disengagement issue (or, as in my case, operator error).

I have added bleeding the clutch master and slave cylinders and changing the fluid to my task list for the spring (at the same time as I will bleed/change the brake fluid and service the calipers). I will also look at adding a heat break.

I just want to add, at my second track day, I noticed the first to second gear grind got worse (as heat built up). It got so bad that if I slowed down a lot due to traffic, I would just leave it in second to avoid the 1st to 2nd gear shift. Now, I can't aggressively drive first gear and shift into second without a good possibility of a grind. Also, I am getting the 5th to 4th gear downshift lockout issue, where it won't let me down shift sometimes. I've had the 1st to 2nd gear grind when the car is cold and I am not revving it out at all, but I've had it most when aggressively driving. The 5th to 4th lockout happens randomly, though lower speeds seem to do it more.

It's all F#$%ING random and I hate it, because this is SUCH a nice car. Also, something interesting I found, I have badge 177, but the dealer only got it 4 weeks ago (I bought it 3 weeks ago) and it has the upgraded wiring harness. Could all of this just be a "first batch" car issue?

Turbo R said:

I don't get how you feel i was attacking or ranting and raving. I'm just trying to help explain it.

The reason your car grinds when its cold is because the syncros are gone. Again like i said in my first post. Once you grind a gear a few hard times then they are damaged and it will grind all the time. It just mechanically how they work.

It makes sense to me, most people do not experience this issue for the first time until they have put some solid heat in the car. Causing the clutch to not disengage and you grind the gear a few times destroying the syncro. Once it is damaged enough it will grind even with proper operation of the clutch.

As for the people who experience it intermittently my assumption is their syncros are on their way out but not fully gone.

This is just one hypothesis that makes sense to me.

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Most transmissions are made with synchros that can withstand some grinding. I owned a 2012 Mustang GT with the infamous MT82 Chinese transmission that the 2-3 shift grinded every day in fall/winter (I adapted to 1-4 shift until warm) until the transmission got warm to which it would become butter smooth. For all the grinding the transmission worked flawlessly in the summer from startup to shut down. I'm sure the synchros had wear from all the grinding but they were not destroyed. To truly destroy them in short order you have to force the lever into gear with force. I don't have one of these cars so I can't relate but is it simply grinding at the middle/end of the gear change or are you blocked out and have to force the car into gear? It certainly sounds like something else is going on seeing it's sporadic and not even a daily occurrence for most people (has anyone reported constant grinding?) and if your synchro's were gone it would be grinding frequently. Being sporadic it could point to something to do with the shift forks (people that like to keep their hand on the shift lever all the time while driving tend to wear these out).

dominican said:

I just want to add, at my second track day, I noticed the first to second gear grind got worse (as heat built up). It got so bad that if I slowed down a lot due to traffic, I would just leave it in second to avoid the 1st to 2nd gear shift. Now, I can't aggressively drive first gear and shift into second without a good possibility of a grind. Also, I am getting the 5th to 4th gear downshift lockout issue, where it won't let me down shift sometimes. I've had the 1st to 2nd gear grind when the car is cold and I am not revving it out at all, but I've had it most when aggressively driving. The 5th to 4th lockout happens randomly, though lower speeds seem to do it more.

It's all F#$%ING random and I hate it, because this is SUCH a nice car. Also, something interesting I found, I have badge 177, but the dealer only got it 4 weeks ago (I bought it 3 weeks ago) and it has the upgraded wiring harness. Could all of this just be a "first batch" car issue?

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I'm almost sure this is the problem with the clutch not the gearbox. Try to shift gear without pressing the clutch and you will hear the same noise. There are two reasons of this sound, clutch is no or not fully engaged or the stuff in gearbox is worn out. I think one or two more trackdays and you will f*ck up your gearbox completely. The question is why clutch is not working in full range?
A) there are air bubbles in fluid because hydraulic system was not properly vented in factory or they appeared due high temp because fluid could be low quality
B) there is adjustment system under the clutch pedal which was not properly adjusted in factory (I'm not sure if it exists also on FK8 because I'm owning 8gen type-r) By adjusting this you can set pedal to make more pressure on clutch cylinder slave so it opens clutch wider.
The fact is that couple of FK2 owners in my country which I know changed clutch fluid just after collecting cars to avoid this. No grinding problem at all even on trackdays. It's not costly operation so why not?
In the other hand your gearbox received some pain already so maybe it's better to let it die and get replacement.

it really is a very annoying and frustrating case of which components is making the other one not work correctly. i wish Honda would put some hard research into this issue and figure it out. ill be pushing mine pretty hard tomorrow doing some auto cross so ill let everyone know how things go. weather is calling for 90+ degrees out

side note: it was also mentioned above someone was noticing some issues downshifting into 4th gear, ive also noticed this with the more miles i put on the car. doesn't grind or anything just doesn't want to slide into gear nice and smooth. very interesting