Premium gas gives 2-3 more horsepower in turbo models (confirmed by Honda rep)

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Design

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The Hondata thread is linked on the previous page that documents the gains. Honda's chief powertrain engineer went on record 8 months ago to state no gains are possible over regular fuel. But it's clear through supplemental testing there are. We were waiting for more consistent dyno results that could best be documented on the 6MT.

Most of us aren't really surprised. The results are consistent with other turbocharged platforms running 87 (most notably Hyundai's 2.0T).
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DjinTonic

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That Honda says the 174 hp requires premium gas is not correct.
 

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I don't think anyone is saying that. What was suspected (and now proven) is that additional gains were possible through higher octane on the factory tune.

The fact that Honda recommends it on the Hatch Sport... only confirms the ECU's behavior (despite the motor being slightly different).
 

DjinTonic

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Look back a couple of pages: that's exactly what HondaMan stated.
 

NorthernEX-T

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There is enough hp to satisfy everyone's wants depending on what fuel you want to run! Cheap gas works fine (top tier 87) and so does higher octane. Both of these fuels can be taken advantage of in they're own ways. 87: cheap, works fine. 91+ for people who want some pep and are running mods/tune.
 


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How long will it take for the ECU to learn higher octane fuel on the factory tune?
 

NorthernEX-T

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As soon as you're knock sensor sees the higher octane, it will bump up the timing.
 

ArnoldLayne

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It is a spurious and false claim that higher octane fuel produces more hp or better for your car etc etc claims and these snake oil claims have been floating around among the 'fact free zone' people for a very long time.

Use the octane rating recommended by the manufacturer because your ECU that dictates the fuel injection process is designed and mated for that specific octane rating. You are wasting money by using 91 octane on a car which recommends 87 octane gasoline.

in addition, the higher the octane number, the more difficult for the fuel to combust so unless you have an engine that demands high octane gas, you get diddly squat in terms of any advantage by using premium gas on a car rated to run on regular.
 

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How long will it take for the ECU to learn higher octane fuel on the factory tune?
It takes the ECU 5-10 minutes to learn the octane. You can datalog this with the Knock Control. These Civic turbo engines respond very well to small changes in ignition timing - if the octane is high enough. We have seen a change from 87 to 93 add 3 degrees of ignition timing. A stock ignition curve runs from around + 3 to -3 degrees - very close to top dead centre, so a 2-3 degree change in ignition makes a very large change in the time at which the flame front contacts the piston in relation to crank angle. Therefore a significant change in torque and power.
 
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It is a spurious and false claim that higher octane fuel produces more hp or better for your car etc etc claims and these snake oil claims have been floating around among the 'fact free zone' people for a very long time.

Use the octane rating recommended by the manufacturer because your ECU that dictates the fuel injection process is designed and mated for that specific octane rating. You are wasting money by using 91 octane on a car which recommends 87 octane gasoline.

in addition, the higher the octane number, the more difficult for the fuel to combust so unless you have an engine that demands high octane gas, you get diddly squat in terms of any advantage by using premium gas on a car rated to run on regular.
the owners manual states 87 or higher sooooooooo.......
 


ArnoldLayne

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the owners manual states 87 or higher sooooooooo.......
You are not going to get any distinct advantages of pumping a higher octane gasoline if their minimum requirement is 87 because that is what the ECU looks for in terms of Octane.

If the engine would perform better in terms of output hp or fuel efficiency, Honda would be sure to recommend that as their preferred Octane gas.

In this case, you are pissing money away on a car that needs only 87 octane gas...
 

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You are not going to get any distinct advantages of pumping a higher octane gasoline if their minimum requirement is 87 because that is what the ECU looks for in terms of Octane.

If the engine would perform better in terms of output hp or fuel efficiency, Honda would be sure to recommend that as their preferred Octane gas.

In this case, you are pissing money away on a car that needs only 87 octane gas...
There are a number of reasons why they would not advertise it for better performance. insurance, the fact they have a sport hatch with a 1.5l engine to market, the fact that this car is geared toward fuel economy. you say use what the manufacturer recommends, the truth is they only recommend "top tier" that could be 87 to 100. your opinion that people are pissing away money is null to those who might like the added bump in performance and don't mind spending a couple more dollars at the pump. your bogus ECU statement is also null to the fact that genx uses knock control which IS the ECU adapting to the change in fuel quality by detecting knock the ECU advances or retards timing in order to have the best ignition for a more efficient fuel burn. an efficient engine is a powerful engine.
 

ArnoldLayne

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There are a number of reasons why they would not advertise it for better performance. insurance, the fact they have a sport hatch with a 1.5l engine to market, the fact that this car is geared toward fuel economy. you say use what the manufacturer recommends, the truth is they only recommend "top tier" that could be 87 to 100. your opinion that people are pissing away money is null to those who might like the added bump in performance and don't mind spending a couple more dollars at the pump. your bogus ECU statement is also null to the fact that genx uses knock control which IS the ECU adapting to the change in fuel quality by detecting knock the ECU advances or retards timing in order to have the best ignition for a more efficient fuel burn. an efficient engine is a powerful engine.
It is futile to get you out of your bubble but I will reiterate....using a higher octane on a car which is designed to run on 87 octane (aka regular unleaded gas) does not offer any advantage except the higher cost you pay and the money you piss away doing that.

Bogus ECU statement? The only bogus here is the spurious claim you are defending that somehow a higher octane gas would make your car fly.

Pretty much most modern engines use knock control technology to burn fuel and they look for the minimum octane and designed to optimize and burn a range of octane rated fuels. It does not offer any distinct advantages to your fuel efficiency or engine performance to use higher octane gas and this is a myth straight out of a hillbilly text book.

This forum is rife with myths and misinformation and self made theories propagated as truths so I am going to leave this one in that category as well.

You go on using the higher octane fuel thinking it is to going to crank out more horse power on your engine...

It seems half this country now chooses to live in its bubble and believe their own set of 'facts' rather than actual facts and it is a fool's errand to change those people's minds. So I am going to let you live in your alternative reality and 'facty sounding stuff' on this.

For the rest of you who are open to knowing the facts (the real ones...not the alternate reality world ones)...just google 'Is Premium gas better for my car?' and you will come up with several articles on the subject (Caveat Emptor: Just like any search results, you need to separate the wheat from the chaff).
 

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The real facts come from companies like ours that generate the data that companies like Google link to. So, here is today's lesson. We cant speak for other manufacturers, just for the many Honda Civic turbos we have tested.

The car tested is a 17 model MT 1.5 turbo Civic. The tank was filled with 91 octane. The lower pink curve is a run immediately after an ECU reset. Knock control is 100%; the default setting. Three to 4 minutes later after loading up the Civic on the dyno, the knock control stabilized to around 70%. The orange power curve is the result of the knock learning and advanced ignition timing.

In this case we gained 12 hp and 13 lb-ft torque.
The torque gain was everywhere - not just at peak.

Knock control for 87 octane is around 80%
Knock control for 93 octane is 55-60%

These values will vary a little according to fuel quality, air and water temperatures.

The actual power and torque gains will be a little less comparing 87 to 91. We estimate 4-5 hp.

Lessons
  • The Civic ECU learns the octane rating
  • The Civic ECU advances and retards the ignition to suit, which increases or decreases the power and torque.

Honda Civic 10th gen Premium gas gives 2-3 more horsepower in turbo models (confirmed by Honda rep) octane_learni
 
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Truckin

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Arnold,
I totally respect your opinion. I have done some testing with my car and have noted the following. When I use the regular 87 like the owners manual says I normally get about 40.1 MPG. However, when I switch to 89 Non-Ethanol brand I get about 40.8-41 MPG. Now, I have tested this over multiple tanks with the exact same drive and driving style with each gas type. I think it does make a bit of a difference in my vehicle...., but just my thoughts.
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