2017 Honda Civic Si Prototype Debut - Q&A, Photos, Video

Eddie said:

Nice read here!

Hondata recently dyno tested a 2017 Honda Civic EX-T 6MT sedan. The EX-T sedan 6MT uses the L15B7 engine, rated at 174hp@5500rpm and 167lb-ft@1800-5500rpm. (Note: This is potentially different from the new L15BA that's found in the Civic 5-door Sport 6MT, which Honda rates at 180hp@5500rpm and 177lb-ft@1900-5000rpm. We're not quite sure what the actual difference are, just yet, though).

As you can see from the following plots, it appears that Honda may be sandbagging a little bit on the real numbers that the L15B7 can generate. The plot that you see is the car as it was tested following a full ECU reset, which means the ECU assumed the lowest "safe" octane rating and ran with the safest parameters (which would be something below 87). There was actually 91 octane in it, and after Hondata had made multiple passes on the dyno, it had time to "learn" the actual octane of the fuel, the final numbers settled out at around +10hp and +10lb-ft across the board. So, that's over 200hp and over 200lb-ft (hopefully we can get our hands on those plots soon).

Note that this is not necessarily WHEEL horsepower, as you normally see from dynojets. This particular dyno (Church Automotive, in LA) typically correlates pretty closely to the rated crankshaft figures.

After speaking with Doug @ Hondata, he said that on an ECU that has "learned" the 87 octane fuel, these figures should be a bit higher (around 2-3hp). And filling up your 6MT Civic 1.5T with premium should result in another 5-7 hp on top of that gain for a total of right around 200hp.


http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1299354

Hondata recently dyno tested a 2017 Honda Civic EX-T 6MT sedan.

The next plot shows this 2017 Civic EX-T 6MT overlaid with a stock 2012 Civic Si (rated at 201hp@7000rpm, 170lb-ft@4400rpm), tested on the same dyno. As you can see, the numbers for the 2012 Civic Si plot are much closer to the factory spec.

Click to expand...

Those results are closer to crank HP vs WHP, as partially explained by Jeff. I talk about it a little more here, including why Hondata went with the older testing method:
http://www.civicx.com/threads/2017-1-5-mt-dyno-results.6944/#post-124640

A2typeR said:

While hybrids will definitely be the way of the future probably will be 10-20 years from now before the technology will be cheap enough for the average buyer.

There is a reason a Porsche 918 spyder is almost a million dollars for a base.

Although Honda is starting to develop their technology with the NSX.

Who knows maybe the Civic type R XI or XII will have something like your hoping.

Great time to be an auto enthusiast unless your getting an Si...

Click to expand...

You've read my mind. If there's an 11th Gen Type R, I see it using the 1.5T with two electric motors driving the rear wheels and one up front. The tech is already there (look up CRZ 4 motor hybrid) It'd have a similar combined power output to the 2.0T, better weight distribution, torque vectoring (goodbye understeer), turbo lag-fill, and better fuel economy. Win win, no? Only thing I'm not sure of is if a manual is possible in this configuration...

J35W2 said:

I'm really interested to see what Honda brings on the Si. A LOT of Chicken-Littles around here predicting the demise of Honda & allegedly jumping ship to alternate brands because of the 1.5T they "know" is insufficient before even seeing the specs or driving one. Honda ALWAYS under rates the output of their engines. While the Si may be disappointing to most because it doesn't have a 2.0T with 250+HP, I think it is going to be a great car; plenty of power, wads of torque and perfect balance with an active suspension; great seats, brilliant 6MT and patented Honda reliability. I predict that Hondata will have a re-flash for the Si within a year that will make it a gold star student in it's class.

Click to expand...

I for one don't want to jump ship. I love my civic. when my lease is up in 2 and a half years I will go from a ext coupe to another civic of some sort or maybe upgrade to accord. I just want some good options for more power and a more fun transmission then CVT. it is the best CVT I have ever tried. not rubberbandy or sluggish at all.

A2typeR said:

While hybrids will definitely be the way of the future probably will be 10-20 years from now before the technology will be cheap enough for the average buyer.

There is a reason a Porsche 918 spyder is almost a million dollars for a base.

Although Honda is starting to develop their technology with the NSX.

Who knows maybe the Civic type R XI or XII will have something like your hoping.

Great time to be an auto enthusiast unless your getting an Si...

Click to expand...

I don't think it's that far out. honestly think 5 years ha

Design said:

That slide was used to illustrate the point of the VTEC naming convention (or lack thereof). It's the same presentation from last year but tweaked for an international audience. They use the VTEC label overseas and Earthdreams here. Yet the motor/config is essentially the same. Multiple outputs up to 201 HP on the L15B7/A. And no variable lift configuration as of yet.

On the CRV, I believe the only change is an extra 2 PSI of boost and a slightly lower compression ratio. We could see a similar treatment on the Si (more boost, lower CR). Knowing the operational limit of the TD03, the practical limit of this combo seems to be around 220.

Click to expand...

nah, No auto manufacture would max tune their mass production car at the limit, bad reliability, gas milage, ................ Those are not what Honda is known for.

chucku33 said:

nah, No auto manufacture would max tune their mass production car at the limit, bad reliability, gas milage, ................ Those are not what Honda is known for.

Click to expand...

Hence the emphasis on "practical limit." They are getting well above 230 in testing, according to several reliable sources.

All of this talk of "reliable sources" is, quite frankly, very hard to believe, so I'm dismissing such comments. I don't care what the numbers are, I will judge the Si once I've had seat time. I am quite taken back by the amount of (for the lack of a better phrase) bitching and moaning about the fact that it has a 1.5T. Okay... let's all think of it this way. Smaller-engined cars are generally lighter, and need less power to do great things.

There's a reason my 04 is just as fun to drive my father's Regal GS, and that's the ~1,200lb difference in weight. Yes, it's two different driving styles, but every time I watch him drive my car, and every time I've driven his car we both say the same thing. His car has a lot of power to play around with, but my car is just a really fun car to drive. Who cares what everyone else on the road is driving, what ever happened to just having our own fun?

I go to an engineering school in the north country filled with morons who drive WRX's and such, and roughly 90% of said population gives me shit because of the Honda badge on my car. But, while they're stuck at 100,000 miles with a blown head gasket, I'll be out there still having a blast with my foot to the floor (NOT getting pulled over!).

All-Knowing said:

There is no VTEC version of a 1.5

Click to expand...

At the moment. Maybe Honda will put for the Si the "real" VTEC in the L15. The most informations are rumors until Honda presents the data.

Funny thing: the valve cover in the US says Turbo, in Europe VTEC Turbo.

Zavage said:

At the moment. Maybe Honda will put for the Si the "real" VTEC in the L15. The most informations are rumors until Honda presents the data.

Funny thing: the valve cover in the US says Turbo, in Europe VTEC Turbo.

Click to expand...

Be careful people touchy on that subject. but who knows it could be an all new version of the 1.5 Honda is working hard. So maybe they have exactly that in store for this engine.

Zavage said:

Funny thing: the valve cover in the US says Turbo, in Europe VTEC Turbo.

Click to expand...

That's more a branding thing. Someone clarified that it has something to do with a trademark infringement here in the US. For now, the 1.5T offers variable valve timing (VTC) but not variable lift (VTEC) as seen in the 1.0T and 2.0T.

UberCivic said:

Regardless of whether you believe in climate change, peak oil, or energy independence, CAFE regulations have been an absolute godsend for performance cars. We are finally getting the highly tuned, responsive, efficient, and lightweight turbo engines that enthusiast have been asking for for decades. Manufacturers are literally playing leapfrog trying to one up each other instead of pushing the tired old low performance crap that they used to. Who would go back to a 160hp 4.0 V6 Mustang now that we have seen what an Ecoboost four can do?

Click to expand...

I've got to set the record straight. I'm old enough to remember how it was the original CAFE regs that *gave* us a 160hp 4.0 V6 Mustang.

Don't believe me? Google the HP/TQ specs of the 1960's Mustangs, Camaros and Corvettes. Then compare them to 70's, 80's, and 90's.

It took the auto industry nearly 30 years and billions of dollars of R&D to overcome those original MPG regs before cars could finally once again put out the same HP/TQ of the 60's era muscle cars.

Now there's no where left to go but EVs, Hybrids and tiny turbos...unless Trump stops it. This just out today. http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidki...-regs-before-trump-takes-office/#2baf2a828a62

As far as this not being on topic, I vehemently disagree. The whole reason Honda is downsizing their engines is precisely because of the new CAFE/CO2 regs-- the reason for the 1.5T Si.

I don't think they'll produce enough Si's relative to the base to worry too heavily about regulations. They historically account for 1-1.5% of total Civic sales. Maxed out, the 2.0T averages well above 30 mpg and would have been on par or slightly above most of its competitors, sans the GTI.

This is more likely a cost decision. Detuning the 2.0T with new hardware to reach efficiency/performance targets is probably more expensive than what could end up being a simple ECU flash of the 1.5T to adjust compression and boost.

Of course, the 2.0T could have been done cheaply and retained a configuration/output to rival Honda's mainstream V6's. And enthusiasts would have gobbled it up. But I'm guessing Honda would have felt it would infringe on other models getting this motor as a "true" V6 replacement. Starting later this year with the 2018 Accord Touring.

Design said:

Hence the emphasis on "practical limit." They are getting well above 230 in testing, according to several reliable sources.

Click to expand...

Production engines always get lower numer due to some restriction from laws, marketing, .

I suspect that Honda will do it's Honda thing.

9th he had an increase of 2hp and 20ftlbs of tq. Besides the comments of high revs, people genuinely liked it. Then we end with mid year refresh at 205hp.

So I suspect that they'll do the same thing and say, 206hp-210hp 190ft lbs keeping the same logic. But it decreases weight, has better dynamics, and overall is objectively faster than its competition.

Shralper said:

I've got to set the record straight. I'm old enough to remember how it was the original CAFE regs that *gave* us a 160hp 4.0 V6 Mustang.

Don't believe me? Google the HP/TQ specs of the 1960's Mustangs, Camaros and Corvettes. Then compare them to 70's, 80's, and 90's.

It took the auto industry nearly 30 years and billions of dollars of R&D to overcome those original MPG regs before cars could finally once again put out the same HP/TQ of the 60's era muscle cars.

Now there's no where left to go but EVs, Hybrids and tiny turbos...unless Trump stops it. This just out today. http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidki...-regs-before-trump-takes-office/#2baf2a828a62

As far as this not being on topic, I vehemently disagree. The whole reason Honda is downsizing their engines is precisely because of the new CAFE/CO2 regs-- the reason for the 1.5T Si.

Click to expand...

That is a fair account of what lazy American manufacturers did in response to the Clean Air Act not CAFE, and why they lost market share to Japanese and European brands who had no problem keeping up with standards and putting out high performance machines. They wanted to keep raking in profits without any real investment in R&D, they literally just clogged up the plumbing of their existing dirty engines for decades instead of developing new clean engines. It took 40 years for GM and Ford to replace the basic engine series that they were milking to death, meanwhile the world passed them by.