Manual 1.5t delayed until 2017 model year

Vtak Groceries

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Threads
1
Messages
230
Reaction score
181
Location
Canada
Vehicle(s)
08 Civic Si HFP, 2017 Golf R
The Si is slated to be released next. First as a sedan then followed shortly after as a coupe. Both are expected to be introduced for MY2016. Look for an announcement at the Geneva or NY Auto Shows (or both).

Anyone paying attention to the market knows that Honda has wanted to step up the potency and fuel economy to compete more effectively. They pulled it off with the base trims and are expected to do the same with Si. They won't quite get the power they want with the 1.5T. And they won't quite get the fuel economy they want with the NA 2.4 - especially when a maxed out 2.0T gets 23/32 MPGs.

That's why it's HIGHLY likely that a conservative 2.0T will be the end result. The hardware will be optimized for efficiency vs. the all-out performance of the HO 2.0T. There will be a big enough gap in power to distance itself from the 1.5T without cannibalizing the CTR. That puts the Si around 220-260 which is well within both the range and efficiency of the 2.0T design.

Not saying we couldn't get the 1.5 or 2.4. But most of us agree that they simply don't make sense in the current automotive climate.
I think the most likely option for a 2017 Civic Si will be the European 1.5t with 201bhp OR a slightly re-worked USDM 1.5t producing 200-220hp. The k24 although it may seem like a good idea, I do not think it can work due to the fact that the 2016 civic chassis is brand new and possibly cannot work with the older K series motors found in the 9th gen civic or Acura TLX. The 1.5t engine is the easiest, most cost effective engine to make work for this application IMO.

A detuned 2.0t would be amazing, but that's just it, too good to be true I fear. It would canabolize the CTR sales and cost a lot more for Honda to make work in the civic coupe. Time will tell.
Sponsored

 
Last edited:

takemorepills

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2015
Threads
9
Messages
703
Reaction score
310
Location
Seattle
Vehicle(s)
1987 Prelude Si
Country flag
First off, that R&T article meant that there will ALSO be a non-Si MT+1.5T, they were clumsily trying to convey that the 1.5T+MT will be offered, and it is not what will become the Si.

Secondly, for freaks sake, WTH do people keep saying that "a 2.0T Si would cannibalize CTR sales"??? What planet are you guys from?? Ever heard of WRX and WRX STi?? Is FHI out of their freaking mind for offering 2 cars so close in performance, but so different on pricing?? Or or or better yet, what is Honda stupid for offering a LX which would OBVIOUSLY cannibalize the EX trims, or the EX-L which is OBVIOUSLY close enough to a Touring why do they even bother offering the Touring??

Where do these car experts come from?? "and cost a lot more for Honda to make work in the civic coupe" say what Willis?? Dude, people are putting J35's in CRX's, you think Honda has some kind of overwhelming technological barrier to overcome to get a 2.0T into the coupe??

Stop crapping on most of our HOPES (see my democrat side showing? HOPE!! where's my HOPE?!?!?!) of a NON 1.5T Si...mmmkay?!?!?
 

Vtak Groceries

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Threads
1
Messages
230
Reaction score
181
Location
Canada
Vehicle(s)
08 Civic Si HFP, 2017 Golf R
First off, that R&T article meant that there will ALSO be a non-Si MT+1.5T, they were clumsily trying to convey that the 1.5T+MT will be offered, and it is not what will become the Si.

Secondly, for freaks sake, WTH do people keep saying that "a 2.0T Si would cannibalize CTR sales"??? What planet are you guys from?? Ever heard of WRX and WRX STi?? Is FHI out of their freaking mind for offering 2 cars so close in performance, but so different on pricing?? Or or or better yet, what is Honda stupid for offering a LX which would OBVIOUSLY cannibalize the EX trims, or the EX-L which is OBVIOUSLY close enough to a Touring why do they even bother offering the Touring??

Where do these car experts come from?? "and cost a lot more for Honda to make work in the civic coupe" say what Willis?? Dude, people are putting J35's in CRX's, you think Honda has some kind of overwhelming technological barrier to overcome to get a 2.0T into the coupe??

Stop crapping on most of our HOPES (see my democrat side showing? HOPE!! where's my HOPE?!?!?!) of a NON 1.5T Si...mmmkay?!?!?

First of all, calm your tits.

Here are my reasons.

- Cost, 1.5t engine is already developed for the civic x coupe. No additional work will need to be done to put that motor in. They can keep the same size intercooler, turbo, all they need to do is give it the european versions VTEC system and maybe they will rework the internals and boom you got 200-220hp just like that, perfect power for the Si.
- Keep in mind the 1.5t in the regular civic coupe/sedan uses 87octane...... not 91. They can tune the si 1.5t on 91oct to hit the power goal easier.
- 2.0t MIGHT need development into the civicx chassis. The only thing I dont know is how does the 158hp 2.0 n/a engine look?? If it is the same basic block and has the same mounting points as the k20c1 than I feel that will make it more likely to be used.
- A detuned 2.0t will and should be able to make CTR power and more with just a simple tune UNLESS honda greatly changes the design. This can be done by sourcing a separate turbo, or change the valve-train or internals. I dont think they would do this. I feel if they put the k20c1 into the civicx si than it would be the full out version with a detune.... Enthusiasts will learn this right away if it was the case. And boom there you go now your cutting into CTR sales. Why drive a CTR for 40-45k when you can get the same engine in the civic x si... Then again the new CTR 5-door is suppose to be a global car correct??? If it is a very limited car to buy then that also improves the civicx si getting the 2.0t.
 

Red Traveler

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2015
Threads
5
Messages
55
Reaction score
1
Location
all over
Vehicle(s)
Ford Fusion
Anyone know what caused the delay? Can it really be due to development/engineering reasons? I figured it wouldn't be so difficult to mate the existing 6spd manual to the 1.5L turbo. Maybe product planning reasons, like it will only be available on the Si or something?
 

takemorepills

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2015
Threads
9
Messages
703
Reaction score
310
Location
Seattle
Vehicle(s)
1987 Prelude Si
Country flag
First of all, calm your tits.

Here are my reasons.

- Cost, 1.5t engine is already developed for the civic x coupe. No additional work will need to be done to put that motor in. They can keep the same size intercooler, turbo, all they need to do is give it the european versions VTEC system and maybe they will rework the internals and boom you got 200-220hp just like that, perfect power for the Si.
- Keep in mind the 1.5t in the regular civic coupe/sedan uses 87octane...... not 91. They can tune the si 1.5t on 91oct to hit the power goal easier.
- 2.0t MIGHT need development into the civicx chassis. The only thing I dont know is how does the 158hp 2.0 n/a engine look?? If it is the same basic block and has the same mounting points as the k20c1 than I feel that will make it more likely to be used.
- A detuned 2.0t will and should be able to make CTR power and more with just a simple tune UNLESS honda greatly changes the design. This can be done by sourcing a separate turbo, or change the valve-train or internals. I dont think they would do this. I feel if they put the k20c1 into the civicx si than it would be the full out version with a detune.... Enthusiasts will learn this right away if it was the case. And boom there you go now your cutting into CTR sales. Why drive a CTR for 40-45k when you can get the same engine in the civic x si... Then again the new CTR 5-door is suppose to be a global car correct??? If it is a very limited car to buy then that also improves the civicx si getting the 2.0t.
wow, there's something really in the water up there in Canadia, eh??
 


Vtak Groceries

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Threads
1
Messages
230
Reaction score
181
Location
Canada
Vehicle(s)
08 Civic Si HFP, 2017 Golf R
wow, there's something really in the water up there in Canadia, eh??
Hey man. I seriously do hope we get the 2.0t in the Si. It would be killer. Lets wait and see. I just looked over the k20c1 and compared to the 1.5t. It should drop right in. All it needs is a separate intake box. Only other question now is how many k20c1 are Honda producing?
 

disco13

Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Threads
0
Messages
6
Reaction score
1
Location
RVA
Vehicle(s)
'01 accord v6
What would be interesting for me, is if honda does give us the manual sedan in the EX-T trim and possibly the the Touring, because from what I have heard about the performance of the 1.5, I may not need the Si power as much as I thought. i do a lot of highway driving to/from work so I'd love to have a fun, quick car that's very economical :)
 

civvie

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Threads
3
Messages
93
Reaction score
18
Location
USA
Vehicle(s)
civic
What would be interesting for me, is if honda does give us the manual sedan in the EX-T trim and possibly the the Touring, because from what I have heard about the performance of the 1.5, I may not need the Si power as much as I thought. i do a lot of highway driving to/from work so I'd love to have a fun, quick car that's very economical :)
That brings up an interesting question for me - whether the manual transmission will produce faster or slower acceleration than the CVT that's in the CivicX. Have we seen comparisons in acceleration between an LX model with manual and with CVT?
 

MMM

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2015
Threads
3
Messages
72
Reaction score
21
Location
Socal
Vehicle(s)
Fit
I bet you can get faster acceleration in the manual. The CVT isn't geared very aggressively.
 

Vtak Groceries

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Threads
1
Messages
230
Reaction score
181
Location
Canada
Vehicle(s)
08 Civic Si HFP, 2017 Golf R
CVT will still have faster acceleration than a Manual. Time lost by shifting is too much. On a 0-60 run depending on the gearing it might require 2 shifts.
 


MMM

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2015
Threads
3
Messages
72
Reaction score
21
Location
Socal
Vehicle(s)
Fit
CVT will still have faster acceleration than a Manual. Time lost by shifting is too much. On a 0-60 run depending on the gearing it might require 2 shifts.
But t's possible the manual puts down more power if it has less drivetrain power loss compared to the CVT. Manuals tend to have the least drivetrain loss.

I'd love to see a dyno between a 2016 Civic CVT and manual model to see how much WHP they output.
 

Design

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
Threads
28
Messages
3,329
Reaction score
2,903
Location
Southern California
Vehicle(s)
09 MS3, 17 ABM Si Sedan
Country flag
It's going to depend on power distribution/gearing. The CVT keeps revs in the sweet spot the entire time, while even the best MT has peaks and valleys.
 

Dackel

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Threads
0
Messages
8
Reaction score
3
Location
Warren County
Vehicle(s)
2016 Civic Touring
I'm surprised it'll take so long to pair up the 6MT manual and the 1.5T engine. It's a new engine but not a new transmission right? I would think that it takes more time and engineering work to pair up an auto compared to a manual since there's less programming involved?
 

Newflyer3

Banned
Banned
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Threads
4
Messages
1,738
Reaction score
1,043
Location
Calgary, AB
Vehicle(s)
2016 Civic Touring
They're probably taking so long not because the manual is difficult to pair with the 1.5T but because they haven't started the engineering till now. You have to understand with the non Si Civics most buyers will be Auto/CVT anyway so they want to get that out first and as fast as they can to recoup what they can from their investment.
 

Vtak Groceries

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Threads
1
Messages
230
Reaction score
181
Location
Canada
Vehicle(s)
08 Civic Si HFP, 2017 Golf R
I think the most likely option for a 2017 Civic Si will be the European 1.5t with 201bhp OR a slightly re-worked USDM 1.5t producing 200-220hp. The k24 although it may seem like a good idea, I do not think it can work due to the fact that the 2016 civic chassis is brand new and possibly cannot work with the older K series motors found in the 9th gen civic or Acura TLX. The 1.5t engine is the easiest, most cost effective engine to make work for this application IMO.

A detuned 2.0t would be amazing, but that's just it, too good to be true I fear. It would canabolize the CTR sales and cost a lot more for Honda to make work in the civic coupe. Time will tell.

Called it 1 year ago from today. Im not Vtak Groceries for nothing here. Where is my cookie? lol JK. Anyway my work is done here.
Sponsored

 


 


Top