Yet anther set of tires ruined at the track...

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djhartm

djhartm

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Separate from the durability issue, I would be interested in hearing your subjective impressions of the PSC2 tires. How's the grip, the breakaway characteristics, the general feel, particularly in comparison to stock? Do they fade as easily?



Congratulations dude!!!
Thanks!

Honestly, I was hoping for a more significant improvement vs the Conti's than what I realized. On my C7's, I have run the PSS, the PSS4S, and the Cup 2's, and far and away, the Cup's 2's have a noticeable advantage on track, once they come up to temp (usually into lap 2) vs the PSS PSS4S.

On the Type-R front grip was only marginally increased vs the Conti's. Because the Cup 2's have a stiffer sidewall, response is crisper, and the car felt more bombproof over curbing. The Cup 2's have a later breakaway and a smaller slip angle, but still very manageable. The Conti's slide a lot the Cup 2's not so much. The Cup 2's did very well in 2 wet sessions in October, which was surprising.

I switched to Carbotech XP12's up front when I went to the Cup's and was able to easily go into threshold braking. The Conti's would have been overwhelmed under braking with such an aggressive pad (the XP10's worked well with them).

I did not get to test the Cup 2's in hot weather, so my comparison should factor the delta in conditions; cool/cold Oct/November vs hot summer.

One thing I did notice is that the Cup 2's had a 2015 DOT code! So I'm fairly certain a fresher set would have been a bit stickier, and may not have chunked.
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willskiGT

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Thanks!

Honestly, I was hoping for a more significant improvement vs the Conti's than what I realized. On my C7's, I have run the PSS, the PSS4S, and the Cup 2's, and far and away, the Cup's 2's have a noticeable advantage on track, once they come up to temp (usually into lap 2) vs the PSS PSS4S.

On the Type-R front grip was only marginally increased vs the Conti's. Because the Cup 2's have a stiffer sidewall, response is crisper, and the car felt more bombproof over curbing. The Cup 2's have a later breakaway and a smaller slip angle, but still very manageable. The Conti's slide a lot the Cup 2's not so much. The Cup 2's did very well in 2 wet sessions in October, which was surprising.

I switched to Carbotech XP12's up front when I went to the Cup's and was able to easily go into threshold braking. The Conti's would have been overwhelmed under braking with such an aggressive pad (the XP10's worked well with them).

I did not get to test the Cup 2's in hot weather, so my comparison should factor the delta in conditions; cool/cold Oct/November vs hot summer.

One thing I did notice is that the Cup 2's had a 2015 DOT code! So I'm fairly certain a fresher set would have been a bit stickier, and may not have chunked.
Mirrors my experience with the Cup 2s so far. Ultimate grip is certainly better, but not by a giant margin (to be expected), but steering feel is noticeably better. I also have late 2015 DOT code Cup 2s, but as long as they were stored correctly (which I believe they were), it shouldn't be a huge problem - most of the oil evaporation happens in the first year and it's pretty rare to have tires <1 year old.
 

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Looks like we need to start a "Proposed at a race track" thread, I think I saw someone else doing something similar (could be another car forum too though).
 

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Looks like we need to start a "Proposed at a race track" thread, I think I saw someone else doing something similar (could be another car forum too though).
https://www.civicx.com/threads/civi...ods-and-bads-lets-share-our-experience.20591/

OP, curious why run so high cold pressure the way you do. I always lower mine anticipating a 5 psi jump when hot and target around a 30psi hot. I've seen jumps to 10psi hot. I keep checking after every session. But of course this depends on tire brand.
Curious to see what another set of cup 2s will do w/ your good experience w/ them.
On tire sizing for track, on a 18x9.5 265/35 might be TOO wide? I'm going to try 245/40/18 next.
 
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https://www.civicx.com/threads/civi...ods-and-bads-lets-share-our-experience.20591/

OP, curious why run so high cold pressure the way you do. I always lower mine anticipating a 5 psi jump when hot and target around a 30psi hot. I've seen jumps to 10psi hot. I keep checking after every session. But of course this depends on tire brand.
Curious to see what another set of cup 2s will do w/ your good experience w/ them.
On tire sizing for track, on a 18x9.5 265/35 might be TOO wide? I'm going to try 245/40/18 next.
With 35 PSI front cold, the tires roll too much on the sidewall, which will destroy the tires.

Mark your tires and see where they are rolling to.

Given my pace and driving style, 38 - 40 PSI cold is the only way to prevent damaging the 30 profile tires.
 


CivilciviC

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To those saying 30 profile tires shouldnt last on track, you're dead wrong.

I've been instructing PCA, BMW, Audi, Chin, TrackDaze, etc. for years and have thousands of laps on Cup 2's. Tire delamination is a known issue on these tires, and never did I have one chunk on the outer edge, as it did on the Type-R.

The Cup 2 is Michelin's DOT track tire, essentially a R-Comp, so damn right I'm going to hold them.accountable for a failure after 1.5 events.

The fact that Tire Rack did absolutely nothing, and I had to rely on my local installer for help speaks volumes about their customer service.

And while extra camber plates or links will help, with the right pressure, even the Contis can hold up without chunking. My second set had 6 weekends driving at instructor run group pace.

The Michelins failed. Simple as that, and Michelin did the right thing.

Long-term, 18" wheels are the effective solution for those that heavily track this car.
As already pointed out, your anger is misdirected. Tire Rack did nothing wrong. It's the same when I was having warranty issues with the OEM Contis- I complained to Honda and they so kindly pointed out to me that tires are not covered by them, but by the manufacturer. They can't do anything more than I can. They have no pull, no additional power, zip.

So Tire Rack pointed you to the manufacturer and you got upset. But Tire Rack is an online store. They're the middle man between the customer and the manufacturer. They again have no power, no control, no ability to change anything- your warranty lies with the manufacturer and that's it. What do you want them to do?

I'm also not surprised a physical store was able to help you out better than an online store. But dont think for a second that Discount Tire did something that you can't. All they did is picked up the phone and called Michelin on your behalf.
 
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As already pointed out, your anger is misdirected. Tire Rack did nothing wrong. It's the same when I was having warranty issues with the OEM Contis- I complained to Honda and they so kindly pointed out to me that tires are not covered by them, but by the manufacturer. They can't do anything more than I can. They have no pull, no additional power, zip.

So Tire Rack pointed you to the manufacturer and you got upset. But Tire Rack is an online store. They're the middle man between the customer and the manufacturer. They again have no power, no control, no ability to change anything- your warranty lies with the manufacturer and that's it. What do you want them to do?

I'm also not surprised a physical store was able to help you out better than an online store. But dont think for a second that Discount Tire did something that you can't. All they did is picked up the phone and called Michelin on your behalf.
I think it's fair to say we can agree to disagree on how the Tire Rack handled this.

And Michelin, just like Conti (which replaced all 4 tires after they delaminated in just 1600 miles) requires a 3rd party inspection by an authorized installer.
 

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While not specific to tire wear and Seller response, i appreciate your post as to the Carbotech XP pads.
 

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There just isn't enough tire height to flex at high Gs when riding on 245/30-20. A higher profile tire at 18'' or even 19'' allows for the tire to "flex" without forcing the sidewall to wear. The amount of sidewall wear on the track at 245/30-20 is too high. It is this wear that leads to delamination.

Imagine the car and therefore, the attached wheel trying to go one way (away from the apex during a turn) and the tire gripping the road trying to stop it by pulling it inward toward the apex. When that happens the tire "flexes" and the side wall contacts the pavement.

Check out @Stig_jdm 's experiences on tracking with stock tire size.

https://www.civicx.com/threads/civi...-lets-share-our-experience.20591/#post-347006

You can see the tire wearing down half of the sidewall all the way to the middle of CONTINENTAL.

PS. RIP his 4th gear at SLB :(
 
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I use Bridgestone R71R's for track work, 265/35-18. With the factory alignment I had significant wear on outside half of all tires and severe wear on driver's side front after 3 events. I flipped all 4 tires and put the driver's front tire back to passenger side rear as that had the least wear. I expect to get another 2-3 track days out of them. They stick like glue, tho they lose grip slowly as the day goes on. I run 34/35 hot, and mite add a bit more to that, am still experimenting. Very predicable and controllable. I can't imagine the grip level if I were able to use the entire tire surface
 


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I use Bridgestone R71R's for track work, 265/35-18. With the factory alignment I had significant wear on outside half of all tires and severe wear on driver's side front after 3 events. I flipped all 4 tires and put the driver's front tire back to passenger side rear as that had the least wear. I expect to get another 2-3 track days out of them. They stick like glue, tho they lose grip slowly as the day goes on. I run 34/35 hot, and mite add a bit more to that, am still experimenting. Very predicable and controllable. I can't imagine the grip level if I were able to use the entire tire surface
Yeah I think running higher psis at your next event would be a good idea. Running higher pressures would reduce sidewall flex and wear.
 

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Here's my driver front after 3 sessions at Barber, was targeting 34 psi hot. :)

Honda Civic 10th gen Yet anther set of tires ruined at the track... IMG_20191119_072147


Honda Civic 10th gen Yet anther set of tires ruined at the track... IMG_20191119_072153
 


 


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