Why did Honda put such a tiny intercooler in the Type R?

Night Fury

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Its a painfully inadequate small core they're trying to cram up to nearly 23psi through. I know most are aware that this is the first part to upgrade, but are you aware as to how ridiculously small it is? Example, my SS's core is 525cu, the GTI is 493cu, the Golf R is 616cu, the Type R? 380cu. The cherry on top is that none of the other cars are pushing anywhere near as much boost through their much larger cores.

It explains how one reviewer can get a 4.9 0-60 with a 108mph 13.5 sec 1/4 mile and the next reviewer can only manage a dismal 5.8 0-60 with a 14 sec 102.5mph 1/4 mile. For me its like watching a 23psi Trifecta tuned SS vs a stock 15.6psi SS and being told they're making the same power. For the track guru the Type R was created to be with its ecu highly sensitive to BAT's, it was a glaring oversight from Honda. I understand keeping costs down, but this is just absurd, a 3.5" core isn't going to break the bank.


I think this comes down to the idiotic engineering decision of compliance under regular working parameters for the car. BUT a selfish way to not back up your product with better parts – this is the bad side of the modular parts spectrum when it comes to some forgotten models, you called it: SS's core is 525cu, the GTI is 493cu, the Golf R is 616cu, the Type R? 380cu.

They definitely had a bad research marketing not doing properly the homework, finding out other models on the market, after all it was a Type R, badge meaning it will be pushed hard, don’t cheap out, and they DID. :thumbsdown:
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DRKSYD

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Upgrading to PRLs intercooler made it spool faster and feel more responsive, so it's not likely that was their goal with the stock one. Probably just being cheap since most people that mod their cars would upgrade it anyway. Still no excuse for such a weak offering.
After my PRL FMIC went in, it's been nothing but fun in terms of cooling and tuning. Derek at IMW is on his 3rd eTune log of mine. I'm running everything in my signature. The car breaths with the PRL intake and FMIC, pipes etc. R400 makes it sound like it should.

Efficiency is usually the case for any OEM mfg. If they stuck a bigger IC in there, they would have to re tune and that changes a lot of numbers and specs they weren't aiming for, power-wise. Upgrading the OEM FMIC isn't going to produce turbo lag, the OEM one is in there to meet their requirements for OEM power. If you're at the point of swapping FMIC's, you should already be tuned for those.
 

tinyman392

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the OEM one [intercooler] is in there to meet their requirements for OEM power. If you're at the point of swapping FMIC's, you should already be tuned for those.
I don't think the OEM intercooler is designed to meet the requirements for OEM power (reliably/repeatedly anyways). For medium to high speed driving, sure, yes it'll be adequate. However, for slower stuff or even driving in traffic definitely not. I personally don't feel like I should be able to heat soak the stock powertrain in 40 degree (F) weather going 50-70 MPH in traffic (flowing on the expressway, not stop and go). But it happens :/

Realistically it reminds me of the review of the Porsche Taycan Turbo S vs Tesla P100d that was done where they put both through multiple ÂĽ mile runs to see that the Turbo S was actually very consistent with its times as the P100d's times plummeted after 3-4 pulls. If you define power by Porsche's standards for ÂĽ times, then the CTR would fail, but if you define it by Tesla's, then it passes easily.
 

DRKSYD

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I don't think the OEM intercooler is designed to meet the requirements for OEM power (reliably/repeatedly anyways). For medium to high speed driving, sure, yes it'll be adequate. However, for slower stuff or even driving in traffic definitely not. I personally don't feel like I should be able to heat soak the stock powertrain in 40 degree (F) weather going 50-70 MPH in traffic (flowing on the expressway, not stop and go). But it happens :/

Realistically it reminds me of the review of the Porsche Taycan Turbo S vs Tesla P100d that was done where they put both through multiple ÂĽ mile runs to see that the Turbo S was actually very consistent with its times as the P100d's times plummeted after 3-4 pulls. If you define power by Porsche's standards for ÂĽ times, then the CTR would fail, but if you define it by Tesla's, then it passes easily.
You define it as a car that was approved for use on public streets. They are not going to state it's great for bumper to bumper city traffic. They test them based on air flow, at speed to the IC. That's the IC's job, it's not a radiator. 50-70mpg heat soak seems kind of odd,at 40mph. It's not happening (heat soak) on normal driving so you are stating something that is after a pull or pulls.

If you have heat soak at ~40F and at the speeds you mentioned...there's another issue with your car.
 

tinyman392

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You define it as a car that was approved for use on public streets. They are not going to state it's great for bumper to bumper city traffic. They test them based on air flow, at speed to the IC. That's the IC's job, it's not a radiator. 50-70mpg heat soak seems kind of odd,at 40mph. It's not happening (heat soak) on normal driving so you are stating something that is after a pull or pulls.

If you have heat soak at ~40F and at the speeds you mentioned...there's another issue with your car.
My car was completely stock at the time, there's no issue with the car. In flowing traffic @40F weather I did experience heat soak going 50-70MPH, the boost kick was delayed by about 1k RPM and didn't kick as strong as it should if the intercooler weren't heat soaked. It only happens if I'm behind a vehicle going at those speeds. Temps will be higher and airflow will be lower in those scenarios. Without being in traffic (open air) there is no issue at that temperature.

I'd argue that if the car can't hold power during spirited driving, then something isn't adequate for the OEM setup. So if the car heat soaks after a few 20-60 runs (60-70% throttle +R, shifting around 5-6k), then I'd say that the setup probably isn't adequate (similar to what you see with the Tesla ÂĽ example I gave above). But if you want to just use the definition that it just needs to hit it in ideal conditions, then yes, the OEM intercooler hits OEM spec power ratings; it just can't do it reliably.
 


DRKSYD

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My car was completely stock at the time, there's no issue with the car. In flowing traffic @40F weather I did experience heat soak going 50-70MPH, the boost kick was delayed by about 1k RPM and didn't kick as strong as it should if the intercooler weren't heat soaked. It only happens if I'm behind a vehicle going at those speeds. Temps will be higher and airflow will be lower in those scenarios. Without being in traffic (open air) there is no issue at that temperature.

I'd argue that if the car can't hold power during spirited driving, then something isn't adequate for the OEM setup. So if the car heat soaks after a few 20-60 runs (60-70% throttle +R, shifting around 5-6k), then I'd say that the setup probably isn't adequate (similar to what you see with the Tesla ÂĽ example I gave above). But if you want to just use the definition that it just needs to hit it in ideal conditions, then yes, the OEM intercooler hits OEM spec power ratings; it just can't do it reliably.
Sorry, I just can't see boost being delayed by ~1K rpms. @~40F, in 50-70mph traffic. For that matter, it wouldn't be delayed, it would just be reduced power at any boost level. You may have heat "soak' in a sense (depending on recent pulls, temps), sitting in traffic for awhile but not at those speeds/temps outright. With the OEM intake, FMIC and @40C, my IAT's were very cool in Southern WI, and around the Chicagoland area. It takes a long time now with the PRL setup, at those temps. to even get anywhere near warm, and no where near heat soak levels. (@ 30-50F)
 

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Honda Civic 10th gen Why did Honda put such a tiny intercooler in the Type R? B61B6DA9-6C0B-4213-9AD1-18A343A6BA9A
Honda Civic 10th gen Why did Honda put such a tiny intercooler in the Type R? 73D8F09A-EF1F-4766-9710-1403D7CD9E05

side by side stock vs Wagner Tuning.

Stock is puny indeed. Imagine the other aftermarket ICs similarly dwarf the OEM.
 

tinyman392

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Sorry, I just can't see boost being delayed by ~1K rpms. @~40F, in 50-70mph traffic. For that matter, it wouldn't be delayed, it would just be reduced power at any boost level. You may have heat "soak' in a sense (depending on recent pulls, temps), sitting in traffic for awhile but not at those speeds/temps outright. With the OEM intake, FMIC and @40C, my IAT's were very cool in Southern WI, and around the Chicagoland area. It takes a long time now with the PRL setup, at those temps. to even get anywhere near warm, and no where near heat soak levels. (@ 30-50F)
OK, so without any heat soak, the car will have its initial smaller kick at ~2500 RPM and holds all the way to ~3200 RPM when power seems to plateau momentarily after which around 3500 RPM you feel a slightly stronger kick that holds to 5500+ RPM. When it's heat soaked, that smaller kick at 2500 RPM doesn't exist (the turbo could be spooling, but the kick that normally is in that range isn't there) and I only feel the 3500 RPM one but not nearly as strong. I've felt this in 40-50F weather traveling 50-55 MPH behind a vehicle (1s following distance). In open air (not behind a vehicle) I feel it as normal (until I hit traffic and start following someone). Once heat soaked, the intercooler will take a little while to recover, or I could shut the car off for 5 minutes (to refuel or something) and it'll feel completely normal again and begin pulling at 2500 RPM and follow that same pattern after.

The PRL intercooler got installed today which changed some of the characteristics of the car. I feel a smooth linear power gain (not really a kick since it's very smooth) starting at 2000 RPM through to around 3200 RPM where it plateaus momentarily again before kicking in at 3500 RPM with power remaining strong. I was fortunate enough to reproduce the situation where I hit heat soak @ around 50-55 MPH (described in the previous instance on the same road, not quite the same exact section though). It felt the same for the most part, except the smooth power gain that began at 2000 RPM was slightly lower. I'm not sure if this is within normal variances as the differences are quite small to begin with or if the intercooler was even heat soaked (again, differences were so small to begin with). Maybe I never experience this sort of heat soak after swapping intercoolers (at this temperature anyways). The overall effect of the intercooler is that it's different, but consistent, feeling and my butt dyno says it pulls about the same, if not slightly stronger, as before. Though I'll admit I need a little more time with the intercooler to make any definitive statements.

Note I'm rarely above 6k RPM (which is why my experiences above 5500 aren't really given here). Another thing to note is that I rarely see open air unless I'm on off peak hours in which case the road temps are going to be far lower. I personally feel like road temps, and not air temps, would most likely have a stronger correlation on when I feel heat soak. These would get higher during the day, higher with more utilized roads, higher in sunny weather, lower at night, lower with less utilized roads, etc. Basically 40-50F might not be 40-50F where the intercooler lies, it might be as high as 45-55 or even 50-60 or actually 40-50 depending on the actual road, its usage, time of day, etc. It may also be useful to consider that if I'm following a car going 50-70 MPH where the air that is actually hitting the intercooler is coming from and if that air temperature would be the same as ambient.
 
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For anyone like me who never tracks the car and uses the R for daily driving only, I don’t know that OE IC is that bad. I’ve asked for this before, but I’d love to see dyno results on a fully stock CTR vs a fully stock CTR with aftermarket IC.

When Hondata uploaded a video on YouTube showing dyno results of a stock CTR with different aftermarket intake systems, the OE intake was found to be optimal compared to aftermarket options. I kind of suspect that would be the case for ICs as well. Again, dyno results would probably tell us a lot here
 

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For anyone like me who never tracks the car and uses the R for daily driving only, I don’t know that OE IC is that bad. I’ve asked for this before, but I’d love to see dyno results on a fully stock CTR vs a fully stock CTR with aftermarket IC.

When Hondata uploaded a video on YouTube showing dyno results of a stock CTR with different aftermarket intake systems, the OE intake was found to be optimal compared to aftermarket options. I kind of suspect that would be the case for ICs as well. Again, dyno results would probably tell us a lot here

There are a few dynos out there (YT mainly) of people who did IC first and have pre-IC and post-ic numbers and aftermarket ic has better numbers. the charge pipes on our OE IC is also pretty sub-par so there's that as well.

For DD on a hot day, you'll def notice the heat soak on OE IC vs aftermarket. Especially if you got any OTS tune.
 


tinyman392

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For anyone like me who never tracks the car and uses the R for daily driving only, I don’t know that OE IC is that bad. I’ve asked for this before, but I’d love to see dyno results on a fully stock CTR vs a fully stock CTR with aftermarket IC.

When Hondata uploaded a video on YouTube showing dyno results of a stock CTR with different aftermarket intake systems, the OE intake was found to be optimal compared to aftermarket options. I kind of suspect that would be the case for ICs as well. Again, dyno results would probably tell us a lot here
My CTR was just for daily driving. Your mileage may vary in colder weather (40-50 F) as some members never experience heat soak in these scenarios, though I did notice some loss of power in certain situations. That said, in warmer weather you will definitely notice heat soak eventually.
 

Architect IV

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I ran into some heat soak once in a while when I was stock. After changing out to the PRL intercooler, i didn’t really notice heat soak. But, the biggest difference was with a 2nd to 3rd gear pull. 3rd gear was just completely different and noticeably faster. I suspect that the stock IC heat soaks pretty quick under full boost
 

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There are a few dynos out there (YT mainly)
The only YouTube videos I have found with my request (dyno results on a bone stock CTR vs dyno results on a bone stock CTR with aftermarket IC) have CTRs that are flashed or tuned in the comparison (and/or have aftermarket exhaust, further modifying the car from what I am trying to get at).

Again, what I'm looking for is a stock vs stock w/ aftermarket IC...no tune, no downpipe, nothing else on the car except aftermarket intercooler. It's an unpopular opinion but I surmise the results would show practically no change at all in performance.

Hondata's video of the intake comparison proves to me that Honda's OE set up is just about perfectly optimal for anyone daily driving the car. Tracking the car, I can see that being a different story.

If anyone actually comes across a video with this dyno comparison (stock CTR dyno w/aftermarket IC vs fully OE), please share, I've never seen it and would happily welcome my prediction proven incorrect
 

tinyman392

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The only YouTube videos I have found with my request (dyno results on a bone stock CTR vs dyno results on a bone stock CTR with aftermarket IC) have CTRs that are flashed or tuned in the comparison (and/or have aftermarket exhaust, further modifying the car from what I am trying to get at).

Again, what I'm looking for is a stock vs stock w/ aftermarket IC...no tune, no downpipe, nothing else on the car except aftermarket intercooler. It's an unpopular opinion but I surmise the results would show practically no change at all in performance.

Hondata's video of the intake comparison proves to me that Honda's OE set up is just about perfectly optimal for anyone daily driving the car. Tracking the car, I can see that being a different story.

If anyone actually comes across a video with this dyno comparison (stock CTR dyno w/aftermarket IC vs fully OE), please share, I've never seen it and would happily welcome my prediction proven incorrect
Most of the intercooler manufactures do this dyno run on their own. They’ll run the car through 5-10 successive dyno runs stock, show the drop in power as it happens (first couple runs vs when heat soak kicked in). Then repeat with an intercooler. I know both Perrin and PRL have their blog posts about this. I’m certain 27Won will as well once they get a blog post up on the subject. Hondata did one as well.

Note these aren’t YouTube videos.
 


 


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