Which stage 1 tune?

fretcrazy

Senior Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Aug 29, 2017
Threads
4
Messages
86
Reaction score
74
Location
Texas
Vehicle(s)
2017 ABM Civic Si Coupe
Vehicle Showcase
1
Country flag
So if I'm dribing with a stage 1 tune or a basemaps on all stock car (not flooring it everytime I drive) would it be fine?
Your power gains won't be as high as those with supporting mods but yes your relative risk is still low, given it's a properly crafted tune like the one mentioned above.
Sponsored

 

RobXsi

Senior Member
First Name
Nope
Joined
Jul 11, 2018
Threads
13
Messages
372
Reaction score
243
Location
Noneya
Vehicle(s)
Nata
Country flag
I believe it is the best available right now. Over the canned hondata tunes it feels much stronger with a very smoother power delivery TSP did a great job. Downloaded mine yesterday and I love it....
Whats your LTFT and STFT with Tsp stage 1?
 

86salmon

It's Hedley, Hedley Lamarr!
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Threads
31
Messages
3,186
Reaction score
5,443
Location
Chucktown, SC
Vehicle(s)
2018 Civic si sedan, 2001 Nissan Frontier
Build Thread
Link
Vehicle Showcase
1
Country flag
Anyone with a MAPerformance tune?
 

Eryan36

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Threads
0
Messages
56
Reaction score
38
Location
Oklahoma
Vehicle(s)
'19 Si sedan
Country flag
It’s interesting to me that the Hondata stage 1 tune adds 27hp/40tq, while the TSP stage 1 tune adds 55hp/76tq. From what I gather both tunes are about +6 psi, is that right? It looks like the TSP stage 1 tune makes Hondata stage 2 levels of power where they say the OEM clutch starts to slip. Someone correct me if I’ve got this wrong..
 


charleswrivers

Senior Member
First Name
Charles
Joined
Nov 3, 2017
Threads
43
Messages
3,736
Reaction score
4,468
Location
Kingsland, GA
Vehicle(s)
'14 Odyssey, '94 300zx, 2001 F-150
Vehicle Showcase
1
Country flag
It’s interesting to me that the Hondata stage 1 tune adds 27hp/40tq, while the TSP stage 1 tune adds 55hp/76tq. From what I gather both tunes are about +6 psi, is that right? It looks like the TSP stage 1 tune makes Hondata stage 2 levels of power where they say the OEM clutch starts to slip. Someone correct me if I’ve got this wrong..
They're quite different. The Hondata Stage 1 tune would be akin to one of the basemaps that ship with Ktuner. The TSP Stage 1 is available to purchase a la carte if you already bought a Ktuner elsewhere or comes for no additional charge if you buy a Ktuner device from TSP. While the equivalent to the Hondata stage tunes (+6 and +9 as I recall) are a 21# and 23# change to the basemap with may other changes they can be done to minimize rev hang, improve turbo spool and throttle response, the TSP Stage 1 peaks at 24.5# and adds a substantial amount of timing advance... which is where Honda's premium fuel recommendation turns into TSPs premium fuel requirement. It is also for SIs only, as they have a turbo with less backpressure and a lower compression ratio, among other things.

I may be wrong about this part... but I thought the term 'stage' for Hondata's tune was referring to their tunes for bases. I've heard +6 and +9 far more often.

Clutch issues vary wildly between different cars/drivers regardless of tuning level. I've had the Ktuner equivalents of a +6 and +9 Hondata tune as well as a TSP Stage 1 for over a year now without any clutch issues.

The TSP stage 1 makes more power than either a +6 or +9 Hondata tune as it is not a basemap... but a locked for protection 'hot reflash'. Hondata and Ktuner both have ethanol enables with their basemaps which will add more boost/timing advance with the installation of an ethanol sensor. TSP has a hotter locked reflash as well, as the TSP Stage 2, which comes with their PnP ethanol kit, or can be bought a la carte as well.

Hondata and Ktuner basemaps are very conservative reflashes with more power left to be able to obtain. The TSP Stage 1 was tested on a Si for a long period of time by Derek as a less conservative tune... removing some of the margin but with still enough left to be safe for any Si. It bridges the gap between the included Ktuner/Hondata reflashes and a custom tune specifc to a car. The TSP Stage 1 in particular makes substantially more power than the reflashes above 4000 RPM, where the others tend to peak around 5000-5500 RPM then fall out.

https://www.civicx.com/threads/tsp-...7-civic-si-cobra-race-support-included.26591/

https://www.civicx.com/threads/tsp-...ivic-si-2-tune-combo-sale-270whp-327tq.28861/
 
Last edited:

PowerPerLiter

Specific Output
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Threads
59
Messages
1,404
Reaction score
1,302
Location
Midwest
Vehicle(s)
2020 Si Coupe 91 Talon TSI AWD 6262 280's N20 and 87 Buick Regal T 6776bb built N20
I thought I read somewhere it runs the stock timing table? I had assumed initially this was where the magic was happening....then had it in my mind that it wasnt. Now you say there is more timing up top? Just curious.
 

PowerPerLiter

Specific Output
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Threads
59
Messages
1,404
Reaction score
1,302
Location
Midwest
Vehicle(s)
2020 Si Coupe 91 Talon TSI AWD 6262 280's N20 and 87 Buick Regal T 6776bb built N20
dam. Im really trying to wait till I by a ktuner. But my curiosity is killing me even with the hondata version...decisions decisions....
 

charleswrivers

Senior Member
First Name
Charles
Joined
Nov 3, 2017
Threads
43
Messages
3,736
Reaction score
4,468
Location
Kingsland, GA
Vehicle(s)
'14 Odyssey, '94 300zx, 2001 F-150
Vehicle Showcase
1
Country flag
I thought I read somewhere it runs the stock timing table? I had assumed initially this was where the magic was happening....then had it in my mind that it wasnt. Now you say there is more timing up top? Just curious.
TSP stage 1 has a substantial amount of timing added. TSP stage 2 I think uses equivalent timing initially, as I've heard it is the equivalent of stage 1 w/o the use of ethanol, but like the Ktuner ethanol enables, it has tables to where additional timing (and maybe boost... through I don't know about that... and if any is added, it would be a tiny amount more as the stock turbo is well tapped out by then) is added proportional to the ethanol content to a point, with full advance being reached at 37% (?). ethanol. I haven't looked at the ethanol enables from the basemaps in awhile, but I seem to recall there was both a table to add timing and boost in those. The ethanol enable was still very conservative for safety but provided a substantial gain... though the TSP stage 1 wasn't too far behind w/o using ethanol at all... hence the premium fuel requirement.

So far as the basemaps and timing... I just don't know if they use stock timing or not as I've never seen/compared a stock ignition timing table vs what were there w/the basemaps... though I've modified the 23# ignition tables a little bit over 4000 RPM. There are a lot of things that can go into the basemaps being a huge improvement other than the boost and timing to improve response, though I don't think those things actually contribute to any difference in peak power. They may very well add a little timing... but since you can still use all octane levels of gasoline regardless of tune, though power will be greatly affected because of high K.control, it must not be a lot. A lot of what I read lead me to believe (and why I made some adjustments when I was still running the basemaps) that once your turbo was well maxed out and no longer efficient at high RPMs when it could keep pushing higher pressure but not actually any more real mass of air... you'd do better to just add some additional timing after the torque peaks and starts to drop to prop it up for more horsepower and not try for extra boost pressure... as you're just pushing the same mass of much hotter air. This would cause a rise in K.control anyways... retard timing... and making you lose power. So at a point, more boost would hurt and not help, to say nothing of it doing no favors to the turbo itself.

Anything more than 37% (I think that was the value... I might be off by a little bit) that might provide some additional cooling of the intake charge than an equivalent amount of gasoline... but also require more fuel due to it's lower BTU content. I haven't heard much of anything good about running more than the amount of ethanol required to get the maximum timing advance... though logically it might be advantageous to prevent knock, but it seem like the engine simply isn't knock limited anymore and you've moved timing far back to the point there isn't much more power to be made.. You can only advance your timing so much until you're making the combustion happen right at TDC and would be akin to jumping and landing with your knee totally straight vice bent... it either forces it straight in (and hurts you) or makes it bend backwards (and really hurts you). If the ethanol amount is such that there's no pre-detonation of the fuel anymore possible... then once you get yourself as close to just past TDC that you can make more power... that'd be all you can do without more mass of air.

Much of what I learned about running E85 before civicx stuff (straight, no mixing) was from reading, though not from first-hand experience on other cars that were port injection. There was a some stuff with 300zxs and quite a bit from the Subaru crowd I'd read up on... but never really connected any dots until I got here. Ktuners online help stuff is very concise (sometimes frustratingly so, when you want to learn more) but has a lot of information and when you look at things like how K.control works to add timing retard, it makes the whole thing seem very fluid and lets you look at whether your tune is fine or whether you're asking too much out of your boost level/timing/fuel quality/etc. or (really) combination of all of it. I realize this has gotten overly long winded... but me reading and fooling around with my Ktuner and interactions with @KTuner to fill in the blanks and make the lightbulb come on has been some of the most rewarding things about having the car.
 


sgtmorph

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Threads
41
Messages
358
Reaction score
257
Location
Long Island, New York
Vehicle(s)
2022 Civic Sport Hatchback (Boost Blue)
Country flag
So if I'm reading all this correctly, I can take my bone stock Si, buy a Ktuner unit directly from TSP.
Flash the car with the TSP Stage 1 tune, run 93 oct on no other mods, and get near 237whp / 281tq on Map 3 ???
 

charleswrivers

Senior Member
First Name
Charles
Joined
Nov 3, 2017
Threads
43
Messages
3,736
Reaction score
4,468
Location
Kingsland, GA
Vehicle(s)
'14 Odyssey, '94 300zx, 2001 F-150
Vehicle Showcase
1
Country flag
So if I'm reading all this correctly, I can take my bone stock Si, buy a Ktuner unit directly from TSP.
Flash the car with the TSP Stage 1 tune, run 93 oct on no other mods, and get near 237whp / 281tq on Map 3 ???
That's 100% right.

...and if you're like me and don't want to have to switch after you start up to go from the mild tune in map one to the hot map in map 3... they can invert their order so you have the hot tune active upon startup without any on-the-fly switching. Just ask for it that way when you order it.
 

sgtmorph

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Threads
41
Messages
358
Reaction score
257
Location
Long Island, New York
Vehicle(s)
2022 Civic Sport Hatchback (Boost Blue)
Country flag
That's 100% right.

...and if you're like me and don't want to have to switch after you start up to go from the mild tune in map one to the hot map in map 3... they can invert their order so you have the hot tune active upon startup without any on-the-fly switching. Just ask for it that way when you order it.
Yeah I would want it to just stay on map 3 all the time. That works!
Now we save some dollaz :)

thanks!!!
Sponsored

 


 


Top