Where are the Manuals?

rjvanro

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Here's a comment from Road and Track:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/a31556/2017-honda-civic-hatchback-first-drive/



Another reviewer on a Canadian site that said that, sadly, the CVT was a better match for the 1.5 turbo and he found noticeable power drops using the manual.



https://www.autogo.ca/en/articles/40635/2017-honda-civic-hatchback-declaring-all-out-supremacy/
Personally, the comment fr. Road and Track only matters if you are constantly at red-line. Whomever is driving like that ... might be better off buying a car for the track or Go-karting. I don't understand why someone would do that with a car designed primarily as an energetic commuter with cargo space.
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planedoc

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Personally, the comment fr. Road and Track only matters if you are constantly at red-line. Whomever is driving like that ... might be better off buying a car for the track or Go-karting. I don't understand why someone would do that with a car designed primarily as an energetic commuter with cargo space.
It wasn't from shifting at redline. I was shifting at about half throttle at 4000rpm when it would surge to redline by itself! I was driving quite normal.
 

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It wasn't from shifting at redline. I was shifting at about half throttle at 4000rpm when it would surge to redline by itself! I was driving quite normal.
Sticky throttle maybe? Please go test drive another one if you can find one. But I totally get the desire for a High revving motor though. You got torque covered.
 

Sanch0

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We need to ask someone with more real life experience tuning the 1.5T MT about this rev issue. Is Carfun from tenth gen on CivicX? I would bet he knows what can or cant be resolved from technique and or tuning. If not, we could pm him and ask for input.

E.G. My Street and Trackday build 1.5T post from tenth gen
 

planedoc

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Sticky throttle maybe? Please go test drive another one if you can find one. But I totally get the desire for a High revving motor though. You got torque covered.
By having the torque covered, you mean my Mustang, actually it revs higher than either the Civic or VTEC Accord. And needs to! It's power is all up high, starting around 4000 then it's OMG right to the 7000rpm redline.
But it is very doggy down low. Definitely not a torque motor.
The 2.4L VTEC would need 24 more HP to match the Mustang's output per litre. That's why, even though it's a 5.0L V8, it LOVES to rev like a small hi-po 4 cylinder.
Btw, the Civic can't be a case of sticky throttle. There is no throttle cable or linkage. It's drive by wire, and that is how they are programmed. Yes, a tune could fix it, but then it's bye bye warranty. If it were out of warranty, this would be an easy fix. But, do I really wanna void 60,000 miles of power train coverage on my brand new car?
 
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Manual

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It wasn't from shifting at redline. I was shifting at about half throttle at 4000rpm when it would surge to redline by itself! I was driving quite normal.
This is not normal. My car does not do this.

I see four possibilities:
1. Operator error (which you have eliminated)
2. The ECU on the brand new car had not fully programmed/learned (maybe LTFT, maybe something else?)
3. There's something else wrong with the car. (sticky throttle body valve, bad TPS, bad O2 sensor etc ..., etc...)


4. Honda set the car you drove up with some bad ECU programming**

If it's #2 then it'll work itself out. If it's #3 then it probably won't fix itself, and it'll eventually show up as a CEL. If it's #4, then nobody is going to be happy with that car, and Honda Service will eventually have to replace/reprogram the ECU

/**it is my understanding that, from the factory, these cars are set (tuned) with a specific ECU for the specific car, but I'd like to hear verification on that.
 
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planedoc

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This is not normal. My car does not do this.

I see four possibilities:
1. Operator error (which you have eliminated)
2. The ECU on the brand new car had not fully programmed/learned (maybe LTFT, maybe something else?)
3. There's something else wrong with the car. (sticky throttle body valve, bad TPS, bad O2 sensor etc ..., etc...)


4. Honda set the car you drove up with some bad ECU programming**

If it's #2 then it'll work itself out. If it's #3 then it probably won't fix itself, and it'll eventually show up as a CEL. If it's #4, then nobody is going to be happy with that car, and Honda Service will eventually have to replace/reprogram the ECU

/it is my understanding that, from the factory, these cars are set (tuned) with a specific ECU for the specific car, but I'd like to hear verification on that.
Agreed on all counts. But how do I determine which explanation it is without buying one and saddling myself to the issue? I just think it's safer to avoid the problem myself
 

rjvanro

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It wasn't from shifting at redline. I was shifting at about half throttle at 4000rpm when it would surge to redline by itself! I was driving quite normal.
Hi,
Oh, ... I didn't realize yeesh, (I only really read the post fr. Road and Track & was mostly responding to that) yep that's not good ... dangerous obviously. :-(
 

Manual

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Agreed on all counts. But how do I determine which explanation it is without buying one and saddling myself to the issue? I just think it's safer to avoid the problem myself
Well, in this age of litigation, Honda is probably not going to tell you much of anything. If you're still considering the car, then I'd say the only really "safe" thing to do is wait and see what shakes out over time on this and other forums (and as was mentioned, the tuner guys are going to be the experts-- but they have their own sales angle as well). Once my car is fully broken in I will do some higher rpm testing and let you know what I see. But that, of course, is only one car and only one data point.

The other "safer" thing to do is wait 6 months or a year and start shopping for a good deal on a used one. At least that way all the brand new bugs will have been worked out, and you won't suffer the 20% or so "drive it off the lot depreciation" should you decide to trade.

IMO, buying a NA Honda (or any other make) may reduce, but doesn't necessarily eliminate all worries as far as ECU vs EPA on these manual transmission cars.
 

planedoc

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Well, in this age of litigation, Honda is probably not going to tell you much of anything. If you're still considering the car, then I'd say the only really "safe" thing to do is wait and see what shakes out over time on this and other forums (and as was mentioned, the tuner guys are going to be the experts-- but they have their own sales angle as well). Once my car is fully broken in I will do some higher rpm testing and let you know what I see. But that, of course, is only one car and only one data point.

The other "safer" thing to do is wait 6 months or a year and start shopping for a good deal on a used one. At least that way all the brand new bugs will have been worked out, and you won't suffer the 20% or so "drive it off the lot depreciation" should you decide to trade.

IMO, buying a NA Honda (or any other make) may reduce, but doesn't necessarily eliminate all worries as far as ECU vs EPA on these manual transmission cars.
I know buying the 2.4L N/A engine doesn't eliminate rev-hang. But from all I've read, the issue is just much more pronounced on the new Civic. New car depreciation doesn't scare me, because I intend to keep this car 15 years. Which makes me put much more value on proper break-in and maintenance. Things I can control on a new car...
 


shire123

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It wasn't from shifting at redline. I was shifting at about half throttle at 4000rpm when it would surge to redline by itself! I was driving quite normal.
I'm curious. Members are saying this is occurring when shifting at around 4000rpm and above. I've been driving manuals all my life (I'm 65). On any car that had a tach, I don't think I have ever shifted anywhere above 3000 rpm. I presently have a 2017 civic EXT with MT on order (should be here in about 2 weeks). My driving characteristics are very conservative and "gentle" with acceleration. Why would I shift at rpms above 4000?
My last car was a 2005 civic hybrid with MT. At 315000 miles the rust finally got to it. (Also needed a new IMA battery). Hence the order for the EXT.
 

shire123

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Just curious, what about a CVT makes it "no matter what" in your opinion ? You do realize that at some point a CVT is likely to be all that's provided in anything.
Maybe here in the US, but in much of the rest of the world manuals far outsell automatics. Also for this year(2017) Honda actually increased the number of trims available with manual transmissions. While CVT/automatics far outsell MT in North America, I sure hope they never totally do away with them.
 

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Honda clearly is slowly eliminating manuals. If you want some numbers to show that, cars.com says there are 25,000 2017 Civics for sale in the US currently. Only 500 of them are manuals. That means that 98% of the US inventory is CVT. Mind boggling. So if a dealer typically stocks 50 Civics in inventory, you'd probably find 1 manual on their lot. Sad.
 

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I'm curious. Members are saying this is occurring when shifting at around 4000rpm and above. I've been driving manuals all my life (I'm 65). On any car that had a tach, I don't think I have ever shifted anywhere above 3000 rpm. I presently have a 2017 civic EXT with MT on order (should be here in about 2 weeks). My driving characteristics are very conservative and "gentle" with acceleration. Why would I shift at rpms above 4000?
My last car was a 2005 civic hybrid with MT. At 315000 miles the rust finally got to it. (Also needed a new IMA battery). Hence the order for the EXT.
I'm curious. Members are saying this is occurring when shifting at around 4000rpm and above. I've been driving manuals all my life (I'm 65). On any car that had a tach, I don't think I have ever shifted anywhere above 3000 rpm. I presently have a 2017 civic EXT with MT on order (should be here in about 2 weeks). My driving characteristics are very conservative and "gentle" with acceleration. Why would I shift at rpms above 4000?
My last car was a 2005 civic hybrid with MT. At 315000 miles the rust finally got to it. (Also needed a new IMA battery). Hence the order for the EXT.
I drive as much for fun as for transportation. I've had a 50 year long love affair with cars. I shift at redline nearly every time I drive. I just doesn't take near redline in the new EX-T in order for the revs to surge uncommanded to redline
 

shire123

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I drive as much for fun as for transportation. I've had a 50 year long love affair with cars. I shift at redline nearly every time I drive. I just doesn't take near redline in the new EX-T in order for the revs to surge uncommanded to redline
So, while the problem is real and shouldn't exist , it may only impact you depending on your driving style. Definite in your case, rare in mine?
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