What to Know about Wheels and Tires for Track Use

[MadMage]

I'm hoping all of you will help me figure out what I need to know when looking at wheels and tires for dedicated track use. Here's the type of stuff I think I need to know about, but I don't know the answers to as well I'm sure I'm missing lots of other things I need to know too.

Wheels:

• Fitment, including diameter, width, offset
• Weight (lighter is generally better)
• Manufacturing/Alloy; forged, machined, rotary forged, ??? (how does this impact strength and track usability?)
• Cost
• ???

Tires

• DOT vs non? (My understanding this can impact HPDE vs Race group placement)
• Size & fitment (incl scrub radius)
• Cost
• Tread/slick (again, HPDE vs race group placement?)
• load rating/load index?
• compound?
• traction? (is this rated)
• durability?
• heat tolerance?

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[merakiautoworks]

Titan7 wheels, michelin pilot p4s. Perfect combo.. Do you have a budget in mind?

-Josh

 

[racer01]

I am interested as well, and sure you will get lots of thoughts here. Your experience level and budget would help a lot to get more specific answers.
In my few weeks I've had my car I have done a little looking for myself for a set of track wheels and tires if I decide to make the plunge with this car. I have 15+ years racing and instructor/solo level and my budget is typically on the cheap end of the good stuff.

I personally am looking at forged 18x9.5's (5x120 and +45 offset) so Titan 7 tend to keep rising to the top of my list. Volk Te37 and Ze40 are also really good but a few more $$. I'll let others debate offset, scrub radius and torque steer but be aware you are likely moving the geometry with most any aftermarket set of wider wheels and going wider wheels/wider tires and the further away from the stock +60 offset you go the more you are likely to have fitment and/or geometry complications. Most agree that the 18x9.5 +45 (ish) size is a reasonable compromise to scrub radius to allow fitment of a 265-275mm width tire (in a popular size so you have lots of choices!) and ultimately increase mechanical grip on the track.

I have looked at others such as 18x8.5 and 18x9's 245 or 255/40-18 thinking it would save a lot of money or get better offsets and by and large that hasn't proven a great option to me.

Don't forget the CTR has a 64.1mm hub so you will likely need hubcentric rings to fit many wheels....get metal ones for track. Titan 7 actually come with 64.1 mm center bore so that is a huge plus to me.

You said dedicated track use so I personally wouldn't use Michelin P4s.....wonderful street only tire IMHO, but not track only. If you are new to tracking it would be ok, but I'd probably get something cheaper like the Advan V601 at nearly $300 cheaper a set.

If you have decent track experience I'd probably go with any one of the typical 200 TW DOT approved tires in 265/35-18.....AD08R, Advan A052, Falken Azenis or even the Toyo R888R at 100TW for a little more stick. I'd stay away from true race tires (Hoosier R7, Pirelli scrubs, etc) unless totally tuning the suspension for that level of grip (lots and lots of neg camber) and possibly accelerating wear on hubs, etc.
I wouldn't ruin any of these tires on the track before setting the front camber properly. Thats a whole nother thread, but I'd bet about -2F camber should be a good compromise or at least max out the stock settings.
Toyo R888R are loud and sound like a helicopter. Good longevity and compound is pretty tolerant of sustained lapping temps and doesn't get too greasy. Good old Toyo compound that is fairly close to my ideal...wish they didn't kill the RA-1 tread design which didn't sound like a helicopter.
Azenis tend to get good reviews on trading a little less grip on hero laps for longer wear, cheaper price and generally regarded as stable over temp range and life span.
A052/Ad08r typically loved by time attack with 200TW tire rules....good for a few hero laps but tend to fall off a little with sustained lapping if you are pushing really hard.

 

[GraphiteAZ]

Titan7 wheels, michelin pilot p4s. Perfect combo.. Do you have a budget in mind?

-Josh

So, let's start with this advice. I disagree completely. All OEM is just fine for just starting.

1st track day? Go 100% stock. Take your classes, enjoy the day. Relax and get to know the car.

2nd track day, keep up with an instructor and get through the day learning consistent lines. Consider new brake fluid at this point with a higher boiling point.

3rd track day. At this point, your pads and rotors if OEM will need addressing. You should look into either cheap blanks like centric for rotors or expensive 2 piece rotors. Either will work, but the cheaps will warp quicker. They're all wear items.

If you're enjoying tracking: determine how many events you want to do a year. 1-2 events a year? There's no real incentive to spend big money to be track prepped for this little of time. I'd at least grab a set of pads just for the track and keep up on your brake fluid.

If you're looking to do 3-4+ events a year then:
Look into a more aggressive pad, a set of wheels, and some 200tw tyres.

Everyone has their opinions on what they like for each of these wear items. Right now I enjoy the Project Mu club racers, TE-37's, and the Falken RT660.

Yes, $3,500 wheels are wear items on track.

Edit: My experience is based upon 11+ years of doing consistent events, at least 3-4 track days a year and up to 10 when I was doing some racing.

 

[GraphiteAZ]

Also notice something about my post?

Sure, you could get wrapped up in coilovers, sway bars, camber plates, aggressive alignments, a set of hoosiers and so on.

But none of that is required to enjoy a Type R on track. This isn't some economy-centered 2004 Civic coupe. This is a Type R - the suspension out of the box is VERY good. The car is a little pushy, but this is very safe on track, especially with a new person to tracking. Your instructor won't be impressed by your giant Karcepts rear sway bar and frankly won't care. You will care when the car spins off course at any slight hint of a hard turn-in.

Enjoy the car, then decide if you want to go full-send on mods.

 

[merakiautoworks]

@GraphiteAZ, I agree with your posts to learn the car, learn the track, upgrades parts that need upgrades first. But the OP said he wants dedicated track wheels, he was purely asking for advice on what to get for track wheel and tires. Maybe he's already very experienced or just wants a set of track wheels so he can have wheels to drive on daily, and some purely for the track for better grip, lighter weight, doesn't care if it gets curbed up..

-Josh

 

[Code Monkey]

Does not matter what wheels you get; the most important thing when you track your car is that every wheel should be treated as consumable and inspected for cracks on a regular basis. There are special dyes you can buy to detect surface cracks but in my 10 years of road racing I have only met one guy (engineer, of course) who used it. For 99.999% of folks, make sure the wheels are clean as dust can cover up cracks and go through each wheel in detail with a flashlight. I inspect my wheels once of twice a year and retire road racing wheels after a few years of service even if the wheels still look good.

 

[spyder57]

@GraphiteAZ, I agree with your posts to learn the car, learn the track, upgrades parts that need upgrades first. But the OP said he wants dedicated track wheels, he was purely asking for advice on what to get for track wheel and tires. Maybe he's already very experienced or just wants a set of track wheels so he can have wheels to drive on daily, and some purely for the track for better grip, lighter weight, doesn't care if it gets curbed up..

-Josh

Michelin p4s are definitely not the right tire for dedicated track use in that case. Something in the 200tw category would be much better suited. There's a thread right below this one stating that the Michelin's get greasy after a few laps, which make sense given their primary role as a street tire.

 

[merakiautoworks]

Michelin p4s are definitely not the right tire for dedicated track use in that case. Something in the 200tw category would be much better suited. There's a thread right below this one stating that the Michelin's get greasy after a few laps, which make sense given their primary role as a street tire.

You're right on that one, I forgot he mentioned dedicated. I love the PS4 for a daily/track mix use. I personally like the R888 on the track.

-Josh

 

[Jwolf]

I'm hoping all of you will help me figure out what I need to know when looking at wheels and tires for dedicated track use. Here's the type of stuff I think I need to know about, but I don't know the answers to as well I'm sure I'm missing lots of other things I need to know too.

Wheels:

• Fitment, including diameter, width, offset
• Weight (lighter is generally better)
• Manufacturing/Alloy; forged, machined, rotary forged, ??? (how does this impact strength and track usability?)
• Cost
• ???

Tires

• DOT vs non? (My understanding this can impact HPDE vs Race group placement)
• Size & fitment (incl scrub radius)
• Cost
• Tread/slick (again, HPDE vs race group placement?)
• load rating/load index?
• compound?
• traction? (is this rated)
• durability?
• heat tolerance?

Essentially, tires are going to be your most important thing.. as always. Please do not ever take the suggestion from anyone that you should use PS4S as track tires.

Some examples of well received street-able track tires: Hankook RS4, Yokohama AD052, Falken RT660, GT Radial SX2.

Wheels wise, just get something that fits (*imo stay between 18x9.5 +45 - stock 20x8.5 +60*) and clears brakes fairly well. I personally got the Motegi MR924 because I like the offset and price is good for a decent wheel that I can eventually compete on.

Also in an HPDE, generally* the only thing that's going to have you placed elsewhere is your skill/experience. So I wouldn't worry about your cars build too much until you want to compete.

Some of the info you're looking for, like traction for example, is directly related to tread wear rating, but most of this stuff again only matters if you plan to compete. If your main goal is learning and seat time, I'd personally just stay away from all these numbers and rules and just get out there.

 

[MadMage]

Lots of great info here. Thank you.

My intent was not to make this thread just about advice for me, but more generalized thoughts, advice and an experience collection so that this thread can hopefully become useful for many folks.

I'll ask specific questions and such in my next post shortly. But to answer some of the questions about me and tracking. I have only ever tracked my CTR, 3 days for a total of 11 sessions. Car was full stock. I was told I was running fast and hard, and can say simple that I was much faster than other R's on the track those days. I used up the stock Conti's near the end of the 3rd track day (hence why 11 sessions and not 12). I had a total of about 4600 miles on those tires. I found their traction very good throughout the sessions, but I started rolling the sidewalls on the second day and had to modify or self limit myself on day three because of it. I also boiled the OEM brake fluid and with VSA fully off pretty much used up the rear brake pads, they are down to about 1.5mm now and will be replaced before I run again.

I intend to track about 6-10 events per year for about 15 days per year, but will also be using this as my daily (which isn't much mileage, maybe 8k total/year). I don't plan on heavily modifying the car or having it become a track only car. Part of dedicated track wheels is not just for better performance, but affordability as I'm not willing to use $400 worth of tires every track day. My budget is $1-2k, though it could be more if an upfront cost is going to save me long term. I would like tires that I can run a full 20 minute session on with reliable and predictable performance. I've had Nitto NT01's recommended as well as a few others I don't recall at the moment.

I'm a degreed mechanical engineer, so while I appreciate simple "Do X" statements, the reasoning behind them is even more useful to me and I think more useful to others as well to help understand as well as adapt to their wants and needs. I think we can all agree there is no one perfect answer for everyone, therefore "why's" are very important.

 

[MadMage]

I personally am looking at forged

So, should track wheels be forged? Or are other materials/manufacturing processes aceptable?

18x9.5's (5x120 and +45 offset) so Titan 7 tend to keep rising to the top of my list. ... Most agree that the 18x9.5 +45 (ish) size is a reasonable compromise to scrub radius to allow fitment of a 265-275mm width tire (in a popular size so you have lots of choices!) and ultimately increase mechanical grip on the track.

Great Info, thank you!

If you have decent track experience I'd probably go with any one of the typical 200 TW DOT approved tires in 265/35-18.....AD08R, Advan A052, Falken Azenis or even the Toyo R888R at 100TW for a little more stick.

Thanks! This is some of the info I was looking for.

I wouldn't ruin any of these tires on the track before setting the front camber properly. Thats a whole nother thread, but I'd bet about -2F camber should be a good compromise or at least max out the stock settings.

Good point, and though not the intent of this thread... what is setting the camber to -2 going to do to street tires?

Does not matter what wheels you get;

So a stamped steel wheel is going to be fine on the track? I don't think that's what you mean... I was expecting something like X manufactured wheels are the most durable for track, but Y and Z are fine, but never use M, N, and O type of wheels. I would assume durability, weight and cost are the 3 most important factors I would love to have some info on.

There are special dyes you can buy to detect surface cracks but in my 10 years of road racing I have only met one guy (engineer, of course)

Inspection Dye! I guess I could do that, but probably too lazy to actually go that far. But you mentioning it almost makes it a challenge!

Some examples of well received street-able track tires: Hankook RS4, Yokohama AD052, Falken RT660, GT Radial SX2.

Wheels wise, just get something that fits (*imo stay between 18x9.5 +45 - stock 20x8.5 +60*) and clears brakes fairly well. I personally got the Motegi MR924 because I like the offset and price is good for a decent wheel that I can eventually compete on.

Thanks, more great info

.
Also in an HPDE, generally* the only thing that's going to have you placed elsewhere is your skill/experience. So I wouldn't worry about your cars build too much until you want to compete.

I'm not worried about placement, as with the group I'm runnign, within HPDE it seems to be more about awareness and driver skill, and not speed. My personal desire is about reliability and predictability so I can get better. Already I'm very aware of how many cars go home early because they breakdown and cars that end sessions early because things get hot etc. I personally would rather run every session for the full length than run a little faster etc.

 

[racer01]

So, should track wheels be forged? Or are other materials/manufacturing processes aceptable?

Forged is easy to recommend as they are strong and light. The old adage of "strong, light, cheap....pick any two" applies for sure. I have run many wheels that are not forged in wheel to wheel racing and for sure in DE's. It's all a compromise and I don't mind a little extra weight for an inexpensive wheel especially if there is lots of track guys using it without failures. Companies like Kosei, TSW, Enkei, Konig, etc. have made strong wheels for a long time without using forging. As an engineer however you can definitely appreciate the two major issues at hand....weight here is both rotational and unsprung. A pound here is much greater benefit that a pound removed from the sprung or non rotational parts of the car. The other is strength...not just to resist cracking but some materials flex enough that tire wear suffers as the wheel flexes under load. An engineering review of the new CF wheels on the GT500 showed they could use less static camber just due to the decreased flex of the wheel....cool stuff.

That is the "why" but also a quick story of how it doesn't matter as much as some swear it does....in the early years of spec miata I was running $75/ea TSW Hockenhiems that were monsterously heavy at nearly 20 lbs each for 15x7. I got me some fancy 9.5 lb SSR type-c's and swapped out mid day in a test and tune day expecting to set new records. Same damn times at first then slower....both on srub RA-1's but age of tires and changing track conditions (slower as day heated up) made more difference in lap times than those expensive ass wheels.

Another approach I have used is to save a little money on decent non forged wheels and buy 6 instead of 4. Rotate through for longer life and you can bring one or two extras to the track day in case you cord a tire or ruin one (tire or wheel) in an off track excursion. What is really tough once you start tracking is that you will end up with a couple tires that look like they have a day or at least 3 good sessions left in them that you will have to throw away if you can't bring an extra pair of tires with you to the track to swap out once you cord them.

Good point, and though not the intent of this thread... what is setting the camber to -2 going to do to street tires?

Tracking a street car is an exercise in compromise, but in this case it is kinda a "win-win". More camber helps sporty street driving as well with almost no downside. I have found through extensive street time in track prepped cars that "Mild" (i.e. less than -2.5 degrees for most cars) of camber really doesn't drastically affect tire wear with street usage, but is absolutely vital to getting front end grip and not destroying your tires on the track. Excessive toe however will kill your inner tread very quickly. I'd have zero issue setting camber to max stock settings (-1.5-1.7) and set front toe near zero as a great compromise between being fully streetable but not killing your outer tread block on the track. Camber is particularly pertinent to change in wheels and tires, as stickier tires create more grip, and more grip makes the suspension move into geometry ranges not seen with stock tires. Running grippier tires puts you even more on the outer tread block and you can kill a tire in no time. Btdt in stock e36 m3 on R comps.... brand new front left lasted about 75 track miles as lack of static camber with the increased grip just caused it to heel over and it ate through and overheated the outer tread block. I was too focused on chasing a friend to care about mechanical empathy.

I appreciate your approach which is why I spent time to reply. I am not a fan of folks recommending things or approaches without first hand experience and I too like to understand the "why". I have been a track rat for 20+ years in all kinds of cars and find lots of "interesting" recommendations on the forums. I weed through it, but I spend countless hours researching real data to be able to know what to filter and what is good info.

I think what you will find about getting serious with tracking your CTR is difficulties with thermal management. Tires/brakes are a relatively easy fix, but much more challenging is coolant, oil and IAT's. I have been researching how HPD combated those issues on the factory TC cars and find it very interesting as this car really doesn't have the best start from the factory in thermal management with oil/coolant. I'd love to take a chunk of $$ and really turn my CTR into a decently fun sleeper on local DE and test and tune days with radiator, oil cooler, J's vented hood and grill, and proper brake pads/alignment and wheels and tires....maybe even an APR rear wing so I can set the car up to be more tail happy in the slow turns and keep the tail in line in the fast stuff.

 

[GraphiteAZ]

I've destroyed cast wheels by simply clipping a curb too hard. After that I vowed forged only given my feeling to continue living.

Doing 10 days a year on track is serious tracking. I'd highly recommend buying a dedicated track car, as wear items are going to sky rocket beyond the usual tires and brakes.

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