What’s with all the used CTRs?

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IceyD

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Incorrect, I said that reading about all the CTR issues is ghastly, not the engineering. I'm here for the same reasons as you are. As a former ITR (favorite vehicle I have owned) owner, I was psyched Honda announced that the CTR was finally coming over. Was lined up to purchase one at release, but remembered I purchased a first year model BRZ that had a lot of problems. Didn't want to go through that headache again and realized the MMC would arrive in 1.5-2 years. Opted to wait for the MMC in hopes that Honda will fix most or all of the first year issues and offer a upgrade worth waiting for.

CTR won't have as many upgrades as the S2000 MMC did, but if it had even half of that, I would be contempt and satisfied.
Fair enough, no hard feelings. I do think that any specific car forum that has a repair/warranty/service section will have plenty of issues to sift through though. Just comes with car ownership of any brand.

Only issue that raises an eyebrow is gear crunch but again the data on it is still vague and hard to diagnose, let alone expect a car manufacturer to officially get behind it.
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Mick the Quick

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Good luck getting a CTR for that price in Los Angeles.

I think one of the reason people are dumping their CTR is that the initial hype and honeymoon wore off. CTR owners who thought that this car would have the driving dynamic as a rear wheel sport car, but soon realized the limitation of the front wheel drive platform, were disappointed.
Possibly. But if you look at any performance car forums, you will see that there are people who simply like to switch their cars frequently, often after one year (or less). . . . that used to be me. That's not usually reflective of any significant dissatisfaction with the car; just a function of boredom and need for the excitement of getting a new car. Can't speak for any particular CTR owner, though.
 

Maverick1

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I like how you go on a spiel regarding German vehicles when you most likely have never owned one.

How is Honda better engineered? The CTR has a myriad of issues and most of them Honda does not even recognize or flat out refuse to stand behind their product. Can't say the CTR is a benchmark of engineering. If this was Honda from 2 decades ago when they made cars that might of had a few issues during the lifetime of ownership, I could give you that. Today's Honda is based off their reputation in the past. Look at their other vehicle models on other forums and you will see they all have issues.

Reliability is not the same as engineering. I guess people who have owned Civics their whole life wouldn't be able to understand this concept. Main reason why Japanese vehicles are considered more reliable is because they are behind the curve on tech. Honda is one of the last to start using fuel injection, CVT's, DCT's, turbo's, etc. When your vehicle is a N/A motor from 5-10 years ago with little to no improvement, it's easy to say we're the most reliable! When your vehicles have the least tech (Toyota), it's easy because there is nothing to break.

At least BMW has enough confidence in their vehicles to stand behind them for the first 3 years (used to be 4) year warranty to fix/replace/maintenance anything wrong with their vehicles.

Comparing my old ITR to the new CTR is like apple to oranges. I wasn't extremely harsh on my ITR, but I did push it a lot and had zero problems the 8-9 years I owned it. Reading all the issues on the CTR on this forum is ghastly. Look at J&D reliability ratings, Honda has fallen to the middle of the pack, while German vehicles have moved up.
I agree with you.
Making a blanket statement like "German cars suck balls" shows ignorance and immaturity, and probably zero experience with German automobiles.
German cars definitely have much better interiors than regular Honda's and Toyota's, if you disagree just go to an Audi, VW or Porsche dealership and take a look inside.
I owned a 2005 Porsche Boxster for 11 years manual trans, and had zero problems with it, other than replacement items like brakes and a battery.
Owned a 2012 VW Golf TDI manual which I bought for $24,000 and had zero issues with it, only to be bought back by VW America 4 years later for $21,600.
I was going to say "hard to beat that deal", but I did actually, I bought a 2007 Ariel Atom for $55,000 and sold it over 7 years later for $50,000.
Trust me on this one, German cars are solid.
 

Driveitlikeuboughtit

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I agree with you.
Making a blanket statement like "German cars suck balls" shows ignorance and immaturity, and probably zero experience with German automobiles.
German cars definitely have much better interiors than regular Honda's and Toyota's, if you disagree just go to an Audi, VW or Porsche dealership and take a look inside.
I owned a 2005 Porsche Boxster for 11 years manual trans, and had zero problems with it, other than replacement items like brakes and a battery.
Owned a 2012 VW Golf TDI manual which I bought for $24,000 and had zero issues with it, only to be bought back by VW America 4 years later for $21,600.
I was going to say "hard to beat that deal", but I did actually, I bought a 2007 Ariel Atom for $55,000 and sold it over 7 years later for $50,000.
Trust me on this one, German cars are solid.
The whole quote was, "German cars suck balls unless you have truly "i don't give a fuck" money." Your willful mis-quote and indirect shots at me are noted. You don't own a CTR either.

Do you have I don't give a fuck money? Then congratulations, gorge yourself on German exotics and Koenigseggs and whatever else.

If you're an average American, then you care that your oil change is going to be $100-300 instead of $20 or even $50. You care that your transmission flush is going to cost $1k instead of $300. You care that your engine will need maintenance overhauls at intervals that become annual at normal mileage. On a Honda, you change the water pump at 100k and look at belts. Then you're good to go. That's what people like. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Are you saying your 2005 Porsche Boxster has had literally just oil changes and brakes and tires? Do tell. How many miles? No fluid flushes, no spark plug changes, no timing belt, no other services?

And there you go, you've managed to shoehorn your sold Atom into the conversation again. I don't know why you keep bringing that up. No one cares you used to own an Atom and it's certainly not pertinent to this conversation.
 

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Incorrect, I said that reading about all the CTR issues is ghastly, not the engineering. I'm here for the same reasons as you are. As a former ITR (favorite vehicle I have owned) owner, I was psyched Honda announced that the CTR was finally coming over. Was lined up to purchase one at release, but remembered I purchased a first year model BRZ that had a lot of problems. Didn't want to go through that headache again and realized the MMC would arrive in 1.5-2 years. Opted to wait for the MMC in hopes that Honda will fix most or all of the first year issues and offer a upgrade worth waiting for.

CTR won't have as many upgrades as the S2000 MMC did, but if it had even half of that, I would be contempt and satisfied.
Pretty much everything you have said thus far is inaccurate at best. I wont waste much of my time on you but heres a couple points:

1) The CTR out of the box will lap your Miata or S2000 under pretty much any conditions;
2) German quality - dont make me laugh. I dont care how many porche lovers pipe up to offer their anecdotal defenses, I'll let the resale value prove my point
3) CTR or "honda" tranny grind issues - well maybe, not here. And not on most of the CTRs here. Take a psychology or stats class. Those with issues are most likely to show up in these forums but are not in any way representative of the larger CTR ownership population;
4) My CTR is my first honda. Prior cars were 1969 chevelle, 1996 Altima, 2008 Volvo C30, and now this. In no way could I ever be characterized as a honda fanboy, so dont even go there.
 


leehom

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Pretty much everything you have said thus far is inaccurate at best. I wont waste much of my time on you but heres a couple points:

1) The CTR out of the box will lap your Miata or S2000 under pretty much any conditions;
2) German quality - dont make me laugh. I dont care how many porche lovers pipe up to offer their anecdotal defenses, I'll let the resale value prove my point
3) CTR or "honda" tranny grind issues - well maybe, not here. And not on most of the CTRs here. Take a psychology or stats class. Those with issues are most likely to show up in these forums but are not in any way representative of the larger CTR ownership population;
4) My CTR is my first honda. Prior cars were 1969 chevelle, 1996 Altima, 2008 Volvo C30, and now this. In no way could I ever be characterized as a honda fanboy, so dont even go there.
Yet you made a reply.

1. Who compared the CTR to Miata/S2k? Yes the CTR will destroy them on a track.
2. Resale value on a Porsche GT3/GT4 is over msrp. Resale value on the CTR is based more off supply/demand over reliability.
3. Honda transmission grind is a issue that Honda has not recognized. Luckily Honda addressed the wiring harness, or are we not counting this as a defect? Great engineering right?
4. Congrats and welcome to the Honda family. Nobody is calling you a fanboy and why are you defending yourself?

I like how you made a blanket statement on how I'm incorrect, yet provide no evidence to support your claims.
 

Maverick1

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The whole quote was, "German cars suck balls unless you have truly "i don't give a fuck" money." Your willful mis-quote and indirect shots at me are noted. You don't own a CTR either.

Do you have I don't give a fuck money? Then congratulations, gorge yourself on German exotics and Koenigseggs and whatever else.

If you're an average American, then you care that your oil change is going to be $100-300 instead of $20 or even $50. You care that your transmission flush is going to cost $1k instead of $300. You care that your engine will need maintenance overhauls at intervals that become annual at normal mileage. On a Honda, you change the water pump at 100k and look at belts. Then you're good to go. That's what people like. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

Are you saying your 2005 Porsche Boxster has had literally just oil changes and brakes and tires? Do tell. How many miles? No fluid flushes, no spark plug changes, no timing belt, no other services?

And there you go, you've managed to shoehorn your sold Atom into the conversation again. I don't know why you keep bringing that up. No one cares you used to own an Atom and it's certainly not pertinent to this conversation.
You are way misinformed, you don't need to be rich to own a Porsche.
If you really want to know, I did my own oil changes, air filter change, brakes, battery, transmission oil etc, no big deal as I'm no mechanic.
Pretty straightforward stuff, especially with the net and Youtube.
I still stand by my view, that making a blanket statement that "German cars suck balls unless you are wealthy" is silly and inaccurate.
Have you ever personally owned a German car, or are you doing all this talking out of your left cheek?
 

toddrhodes

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You're the second person tonight to use the GT3 to prove Porsche cars don't depreciate. Apparently Caymans (and not the limited GT4 you cited), Cayennes, Boxsters, NA 996s don't count? For Honda, the ITR or the S2000 CR have appreciated - anyone can play this game when you use halo, or very limited run cars to prove your point.

It's frustrating that the people most critical of the CTR on this forum don't own one, likely haven't driven one, yet use cars costing significantly more than what the CTR does as some sort of comparison. It's ridiculous and it's like not buying something on Amazon because the item has a 4.5 star rating but you saw some 1 stars. The transmission issues some are facing are unfortunate but the playbook is the same as with any issue - work with your dealer, document the issue, do what you can to get them to reproduce it and use your warranty as intended. There is no "evidence" that this is a widespread issue with these cars so a recall is not warranted at this time. What evidence is he supposed to provide for the majority of owners who have no issues with the car?
 

leehom

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I don't understand your point. Isn't the CTR/ITR/S2K CR a vehicle that is limited in production from Honda compared to their other models? Which would be similar to the limited production vehicles from other manufacturers?

How many CR's were produced? On wikipedia, less than 2,000 for the CR. Less than 4,000 ITR over 4 years in USA.

What does owning or driven one have anything to do with being critical about it? A poster made a statement about how trash German cars are and he got a response to why they aren't. If anything, it's a German vs Honda argument.

If you read my previous post, the transmission issue on the CTR isn't limited to just this vehicle. They have had a history of transmission issues over decades that they never issued a TSB or fix. Isn't the transmission grind thread over 65 pages? That isn't a minor issue in my book.
 

Driveitlikeuboughtit

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2. Resale value on a Porsche GT3/GT4 is over msrp. Resale value on the CTR is based more off supply/demand over reliability.

This makes no sense - of course resale value is based on supply and demand, right. What is your point? So what does that make resale value on the GT3/GT4? Do you think they've produced hundreds of thousands of GT3/GT4?

A GT3 is 143k - it's a very limited and niche product. 14,000 produced since 1999. Less than 1k a year, or less than 20% of CTR supply in 2018.
 


leehom

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This makes no sense - of course resale value is based on supply and demand, right. What is your point? So what does that make resale value on the GT3/GT4? Do you think they've produced hundreds of thousands of GT3/GT4?

A GT3 is 143k - it's a very limited and niche product. 14,000 produced since 1999. Less than 1k a year, or less than 20% of CTR supply in 2018.
Did you read the poster I quoted? He cited reliability as the reason why CTR's are holding a high resale value. Reliability is a part of it, but not the main factor.

Edit: Okay I'm wrong. He didn't specifically say that, but that's the way I interpreted it based off his German quality is a joke.
 

toddrhodes

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If you don't see how my comparison was relevant to your example of Porsche depreciation, I can't help you. You used the GT3 which is a very rare car, by comparison, to put up against a manufacturer like Honda.

Look at lease rates and money factors - Honda and Lexus are among the best, this is due to those companies having to accept less risk for financial loss when the cars are turned back in because the residual values remain high. BMW is absolutely atrocious at this, or maybe my neighbor the former BMW salesman is wrong that owners would frequently have to roll-in prior negative equity because the cars tanked in value, as expected. Porsche is better, admittedly, but they are not immune to depreciation and your example just proves you're trying to make a very tenuous point.

To be honest, I don't know why we're even arguing over resale value. Keep reading forums and getting scared off from cars because you think that forums represent total ownership experience. I'll keep enjoying mine.
 

Maverick1

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You're the second person tonight to use the GT3 to prove Porsche cars don't depreciate. Apparently Caymans (and not the limited GT4 you cited), Cayennes, Boxsters, NA 996s don't count? For Honda, the ITR or the S2000 CR have appreciated - anyone can play this game when you use halo, or very limited run cars to prove your point.

It's frustrating that the people most critical of the CTR on this forum don't own one, likely haven't driven one, yet use cars costing significantly more than what the CTR does as some sort of comparison. It's ridiculous and it's like not buying something on Amazon because the item has a 4.5 star rating but you saw some 1 stars. The transmission issues some are facing are unfortunate but the playbook is the same as with any issue - work with your dealer, document the issue, do what you can to get them to reproduce it and use your warranty as intended. There is no "evidence" that this is a widespread issue with these cars so a recall is not warranted at this time. What evidence is he supposed to provide for the majority of owners who have no issues with the car?
I guess you misunderstood my replies.
I was responding to the silly comment that the CTR will not depreciate like Porsches do.
Most Porsches, generally hold their values very well.
Secondly, I was responding to the comment that you have to be wealthy to own a Porsche or other German car.
Totally untrue.
And yes I've test driven a Type R, and very much enjoyed the experience.
Simple as that.
 

Driveitlikeuboughtit

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You are way misinformed, you don't need to be rich to own a Porsche.
If you really want to know, I did my own oil changes, air filter change, brakes, battery, transmission oil etc, no big deal as I'm no mechanic.
Pretty straightforward stuff, especially with the net and Youtube.
I still stand by my view, that making a blanket statement that "German cars suck balls unless you are wealthy" is silly and inaccurate.
Have you ever personally owned a German car, or are you doing all this talking out of your left cheek?
You need I don't give a fuck money. That is relative. You've conflated that to "rich", whatever "rich" means to you. This is a goddamn Civic board, people are worried about the difference in payments between a Si and a Sport. Hint - we're talking dozens of dollars a month. This is where you hand wave and say pffft that's nothing. Congratulations, you're richer than most on this board. At least have the decency to recognize it.

I'm glad you have shit tons of spare time and a willingness to buy all the tools and supplies you need to do all that work. Your time is worth money, believe it or not. You may not value it, but I value my time and I don't want to HAVE to do maintenance because otherwise I can't afford it. Doing an oil change on a mid-engine car is not easy, no matter how much you want to poo-poo it. A shop charges $200 (More like 300-400) easy for an oil change on one. You never answered how many miles you put on it. My guess is it wasn't 100,000 miles.

How do you afford the Porsche in the first place unless you have money? Nobody gives loans for old ass cars, especially old ass luxury sports cars like Porsche. You're paying out of pocket or you're taking on an incredibly bad loan. And you can't count on depreciation being the only expense - there is the off chance your Porsche needs serious work when you own it, serious work that would blow the hole in the budget of any average American. Serious work that is needed or your Porsche that has great resale value in good condition is now worth almost nothing. That is not a risk that a person without money should take.

I said earlier I've owned 2x BMW 3-series. Your snobbery is unwarranted. Compared to Hondas I've owned, they were a complete pain in the ass. They are not set it and forget it cars.
 

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Relevant to this conversation, my BMW has spent almost 2 weeks of the past 3 months in the shop for relatively normal problems, i.e. nothing bizarre that took a week to diagnose. It's a huge pain and burdensome. Yes, it is covered by warranty and yes they gave me a loaner, but even on a $100k car under warranty this is the crap that BMW owners have to deal with. Oh, and it has depreciated 70% from new.
I've had much better experiences with Honda products, and I'm hoping this CTR continues those good experiences.

BTW, I had a GT3 and its original owner took a very large hit on depreciation. He certainly did not see appreciation or break even. Just adding more one-person anecdotes to the thread.
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