Voiding Warranty

[Design]

So to my point that a tech can't tell you flashed, they can't. Engineers can see the data from an event but they still can't tell if an ecu was flashed unless the data in an event shows the car operated outside of the parameters, which is why it stored the info anyway. Law enforcement needs a warrant for the data. In the manual I believe it says it stores pertinent information to an event that triggers the edr, but its not constantly recording....

I think it's going to depend on the type of data available. I'm told they can piece together several measurements to tell if the parameters have been modified (namely boost and throttle position). But we really haven't seen any specific claims to warrant further investigation in that area, like a turbo failure.

This is all conjecture of course. I honestly don't know what they can see (or can't).

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[totopo]

On the Honda Care page

Yeah, you are completely misreading that. That is talking about mostly OEM replacement parts. That is the main focus of the magnuson moss act. They are saying if you chose a different vendor and say buy a non OEM but equivalent replacement muffler, that does not void the entire warranty, which is a very common sense type of law.

However, that second part means that if you change the ECU, they are allowed to deny warranty claims to just about everything in the drivetrain if in their opinion it caused the damage. Everyone talks about "proof" like they need to write a 50 page dissertation with diagrams and 20 pages of supplemental parts testing. "Proof" is their mechanic going, yeah, in my expert opinion, the mod caused the failure. If you want to fight that, you have to sue and bring it to court.

here is an actual lawyer explaining it better than me:
http://lehtoslaw.com/will-modifications-void-new-car-warranty/

Other popular modifications might likewise be problematic. Companies sell aftermarket modifications for Electronic Control Units which range from new programming to high performance replacement units. The net result is that the engine is now being controlled by a program unlike the one your car shipped with. Manufacturers know these mods exist and these will also run afoul of warranty coverage. Many Owner’s Manuals specifically state that warranty coverage does not extend to changes to the vehicle’s “configuration” and this limitation is not forbidden by the Magnuson Moss section cited above. The manufacturer is not requiring you to use a particular brand of item or service, they just don’t want you using one that is altered to different settings than those configured at the factory. Or, put it this way: If your ECU went bad and needed replacement, you could replace it with one of any brand you liked, so long as it controlled the engine the same as the original.

Expect your warranty claim on your drivetrain to be scrutinized if you come in with a hopped up ECU. These claims are routinely denied so long as the failure appears to be related somehow to the new – altered – performance parameters of the ECU. And this is perfectly legal according to the Federal Trade Commission which is the government entity charged with creating rules to implement the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act.

Dude, I don't understand why you are so gung-ho on modding and trying to warranty fraud and slip things by dealers. I would be cautious with advice to impressionable young people. People should fully be aware of the economical risks before they decide to mod their car.

 

[dallasjhawk]

Yeah, you are completely misreading that. That is talking about mostly OEM replacement parts. That is the main focus of the magnuson moss act. They are saying if you chose a different vendor and say buy a non OEM but equivalent replacement muffler, that does not void the entire warranty, which is a very common sense type of law.

However, that second part means that if you change the ECU, they are allowed to deny warranty claims to just about everything in the drivetrain if in their opinion it caused the damage. Everyone talks about "proof" like they need to write a 50 page dissertation with diagrams and 20 pages of supplemental parts testing. "Proof" is their mechanic going, yeah, in my expert opinion, the mod caused the failure. If you want to fight that, you have to sue and bring it to court.

here is an actual lawyer explaining it better than me:
http://lehtoslaw.com/will-modifications-void-new-car-warranty/




Dude, I don't understand why you are so gung-ho on modding and trying to warranty fraud and slip things by dealers. I would be cautious with advice to impressionable young people. People should fully be aware of the economical risks before they decide to mod their car.

Ummm how am I misreading that, It clearly states AFTERMARKET PARTS, not non oem replacement parts.

And to your point about the expert opinion, to deny the warranty claim they have to have proof, not opinion. And they still cant prove you flashed the ECU. No one asked for 50 pages, all they asked is show me in the HDS where is shows you flashed the ECU. Or show me what code popped up that shows I over revved the car. Its not hard really. Its either there or it isnt.

EDIT: yanked straight from you lawyer link, he advocates returning to stock before bring the vehicle in for service, kind of like flashing the ECU back to stock........

 

[totopo]

Ummm how am I misreading that, It clearly states AFTERMARKET PARTS, not non oem replacement parts.

And to your point about the expert opinion, to deny the warranty claim they have to have proof, not opinion. And they still cant prove you flashed the ECU. No one asked for 50 pages, all they asked is show me in the HDS where is shows you flashed the ECU. Or show me what code popped up that shows I over revved the car. Its not hard really. Its either there or it isnt.

EDIT: yanked straight from you lawyer link, he advocates returning to stock before bring the vehicle in for service, kind of like flashing the ECU back to stock........

You are misreading it because it is mostly related to parts by different manufacturers designed to do the same thing as OEM parts. Like you can go to autozone and buy their replacement for whatever.

You keep mixing up everything in a jumble. Try to keep your points clearer. There are like 2 separate issues here.

#1: If you tune your ECU, can they legally deny warranty work on the drivetrain. The answer is yes.

#2: Will they detect your ECU modification. This is a different issue that doesn't have to do with the first. I don't have any expertise so I am not talking at all about this issue.
A somewhat related is will they even look for ECU tuning.

Note in that case where he talks about removing the aftermarket air filter. That was because the issue was not caused by the air filter. It was improperly blamed. If the customer took it out, it would be fine. Now however, if you have an ECU tune, and specifically remove it when you try to get warranty work, where the ECU tune DID have an impact on the warranty work, then this is called warranty fraud.

I don't understand how everyone is so freely suggesting everyone commit warranty fraud on this forum. It impacts all civic owners and drives up the costs of future civics.

 

[tehSteve]

just hopped into here to say that first mod on my EvoX was an Extreme Turbo Systems Intake without a tune. The car stalled 1 out of 5 times when at a dead stop. Revs started jumping a little and then poof.

 

[dallasjhawk]

You are misreading it because it is mostly related to parts by different manufacturers designed to do the same thing as OEM parts. Like you can go to autozone and buy their replacement for whatever.

You keep mixing up everything in a jumble. Try to keep your points clearer. There are like 2 separate issues here.

#1: If you tune your ECU, can they legally deny warranty work on the drivetrain. The answer is yes.

#2: Will they detect your ECU modification. This is a different issue that doesn't have to do with the first. I don't have any expertise so I am not talking at all about this issue.
A somewhat related is will they even look for ECU tuning.

Note in that case where he talks about removing the aftermarket air filter. That was because the issue was not caused by the air filter. It was improperly blamed. If the customer took it out, it would be fine. Now however, if you have an ECU tune, and specifically remove it when you try to get warranty work, where the ECU tune DID have an impact on the warranty work, then this is called warranty fraud.

I don't understand how everyone is so freely suggesting everyone commit warranty fraud on this forum. It impacts all civic owners and drives up the costs of future civics.

Yeah no, Im not mixing anything up. Its a clear FACT that adding any aftermarket part does not void your warranty, they still have to prove it caused the issue.

#1 and #2 don't matter because they cant see it. They can only assume you may have tuned it, and if you dont out yourself, they will never know. And no, I don't care about the dealer because the dealer doesn't care about me. I really don't care that it might cost you $5 more dollars next year to buy a Honda because they covered my warranty and you should't either bc $5 next year is better than $2500 or $5000 today......

 

[NoelPR]

just hopped into here to say that first mod on my EvoX was an Extreme Turbo Systems Intake without a tune. The car stalled 1 out of 5 times when at a dead stop. Revs started jumping a little and then poof.

And that happens when you do mods without researching. Most turbo cars get f.. up after an intake without a tune.

 

[dallasjhawk]

Really the only clear cut 100% correct answer here is, if you mod your car, assume responsibility for the mods, don't be a dick and let your mods destroy your car then revert it and commit fraud and play dumb. Own up to your actions of modifying a vehicle beyond what it was shipped as if it breaks parts that are related to it, and don't try to reason with Dallas because he refuses to listen to anyone and tell everyone to commit fraud when the damages are your fault because dealerships are bad.

Your mods not being an issue on the warranty claim does not equal factual evidence that you can mod your vehicle and have no consequences. Your case was 1 of many. Their warranty clearly state that yes, you can mod it (I'll even give you OEM and Aftermarket), but that if the mods cause it, they'll deny it. And you have no proof, just as many others have no proof, of if they can see ECU modifications or not, so again, just because your tech didn't check for that doesn't mean that there aren't those at Honda who could see. Telling people to mod their ECU/vehicle and to not expect repercussions if the parts cause damages is a dangerous thing because you'll get people modding their vehicle and destroying parts, then trying to warranty it and being denied. Sometimes people are easily convinced and don't research enough and will see "oh they cant see my ECU changes" and just go for it.

Plain and simple, again, if you mod your vehicle and it destroys parts of the vehicle as a result, don't be a dick and own up to your mistake. If the damages are outside of the parts you have installed, then yes, by all means, use the warranty.

I didn't tell anyone to not expect consequences, I give them reason to believe the dealer can not see their tune so that they can buy the product and not worry that their whole warranty is voided strictly by flashing the ecu. Why do people ask if it voids your warranty? because so many people has falsely claimed that it does so they worry. You can't reason with me because I am right. I didnt tell anyone to commit fraud, I told them to flash back to stock to protect themselves from shady ass dealers who only want to stiff you anyway. Why give them any leeway to do it?

And again, I ask for 1 person, anyone to show me where the dealer can see you flashed your car? Prove me wrong, no one has for years and it hasnt changed yet.

EDIT: Also your dealer is your advocate when it comes to dealing with corporate Honda. Find a good service department, stay on good terms with your adviser, keep your car maintained and they are going to be on your side regardless. I have a great relationship with mine and I've yet to encounter an issue with them, even with my intake and wheels and hids, and wing. Have had multiple warranty claims covered by them in less than 2 years. Feels like I bought a piece of shit car when I look back on the less than 2 years of ownership and all my trips their.

 

[dallasjhawk]

You are telling people to commit fraud. You said yourself, in this thread, that you were ready to cover the costs of the repairs ONLY if you got caught, but since you didn't get caught, you let them cover the costs since you converted back to stock and it went unnoticed. That is the literal definition of fraud since you knowingly pushed the car past stock parameters, something broke, you went in trying to not be caught, and made a claim that was covered under warranty. And you've made it perfectly clear you have no issue screwing over dealerships as well to go along with those claims. I had no issues with the dealer I worked with and they regularly check in with me still months after purchasing to make sure that my vehicle is doing well, so why should I go back to them when I need repairs feeling entitled to screw them over when I knowingly pushed the car past the stock limits and broke it?

And I again ask for your proof as well, because again, your 1 case does not equal fact. This is why I said above the only 100% fact that can even be claimed in this thread is to own up to damages that are your fault if you knowingly push the car past what it was made for.

The preponderance of evidence is far more in my favor when it comes to telling if they can see if you flashed. There a more cases on this website where people got engines or transmissions replaced and not a word. I have 6 years of posts asking for 1 single person to show me where they can see it. You know why they don't, because they can't. now I can only assume you are so butt hurt about this that you have some sort of affiliation with a dealer or Honda and in that case I understand why you are so mad. But if you don't why do you care? Do you go tell on yourself when you speed even 1 mph over the speed limit or when you california roll the stop sign? Because clearly that is breaking the law as well.

 

[dallasjhawk]

I have no affiliation with any dealership, I just choose to accept when I break something that I knew could happen, and that is the most stupid comparison I think I have ever heard. There's a difference in knowingly committing fraud and getting a ticket. I'm not screwing a company out of possibly thousands of dollars just because I can and don't like them because MEH THEY'RE BAD GUYS! God forbid someone want to just accept that they broke something and pay for it, right? Shocking concept apparently.

Ive paid for my fair share of parts over my years of owning cars. Ive seen you say in other threads as well that flashing 100% voids the warranty and it absolutely does not so stop spreading misinformation. Also It is the same, you are screwing the city out of hundreds of dollars every time you speed or roll a stop sign. Those red light tickets add up too.

 

[dallasjhawk]

I'm not going to bother arguing the ECU/mods, I said earlier that I thought 100%, and yes, that was wrong. I don't know, but you don't know for certain either, so therefore the only people that actually know are, and will remain Honda. I can admit that I don't actually know though.

And there is a difference in going out and speeding or rolling stop signs with daily driving and knowingly making fraudulent claims at a dealership. I don't go drive my car with the intention of breaking laws and screwing the city/county out of money just because I don't like them and can do it. It's still making fraudulent claims simply because you can and you don't like dealerships so you try to avoid paying for damages that were your fault.

ok lets bury it here with one last thought and if you want to reply cool. I know for a fact that people that work for the dealership get things covered that you and I won't because we dont work there or have the "hookup" The dealer has a lot of leeway on warranty claims and the only time it becomes an issue is if Honda wants more info on the claim. Then the dealer just needs to show that they have followed the book and tech lines instructions and they cover it. Things like over rev codes are automatically denied. Anyhow, lets just both enjoy our rides, help others out and be happy people.

 

[jakdotdot]

While it is not specific to Honda, here is some Ford documentation on the subject of engine modifications and warranty claims.

https://www.svtperformance.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Gas-Engine-Modification-Bulletin.pdf

 

[dallasjhawk]

While it is not specific to Honda, here is some Ford documentation on the subject of engine modifications and warranty claims.

https://www.svtperformance.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Gas-Engine-Modification-Bulletin.pdf

This is no way has any affect on Honda. What Ford can do with their ECU is different than what Honda can or chooses to do with theirs. Im sure if Honda wanted to include a "flash counter" on the ecu they could, but they don't. And look at their chart, even if they calibration has been modified, if they determine the calibration didnt cause the failure, Warranty it.

 

[10thDave]

The event data is technically independent of the ECU. Techs can't read it. Regional engineers can. The likelihood of that happening is slim to none, and only in cases when Honda wants to know more about the parameters leading to a specific powertrain failure. It captures information similar to the EDR in terms of freeze frame data, and is reportedly triggered when certain parameters are exceeded (RPMs, PSI, etc).

The reason there is a lot of secrecy surrounding what can/cannot be monitored is because very few have visibility into the full parameters of the EDR/SDR. With regards to the overrev example, the DTC can be erased via a standard over-the-counter HDS scan tool; but the freeze data cannot.

Honda has a brief mention in the owners manual, with several brief mentions in technical articles over the years. Several members have reported having their warranty claims denied (despite clearing DTCs from the ECU and reflashing back to stock). And my own conversations with both Torrance and a local master tech have produced a similar narrative. Take it for what it's worth...

So for any of those events in the first part, would some sort of alert go off or would it be silent and you have no idea? Because with the few people who've had problems with rods and whatnot getting damaged, I'm not so sure the car would create a freezeframe if you will of the turbo going to say 18 or 21 psi would it?

 

[Design]

I don't think anyone knows what parameters or conditions trigger an event, except for an overrev.

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