Using the OEM amp for clean line out(s).

bikejog

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Oh ok. My bad. I understood you have two 8" installed.
Oh no sorry. I was talking about my home speakers. lol...

I had these JBL S312 3-way in early 2000s. The woofer is 12". Those babies were awesome. They don't make them like that anymore. lol...

Honda Civic 10th gen Using the OEM amp for clean line out(s). 1608397302624


These are what I have now. JBL L890 4-way. With two 8" woofers. Still pretty good, but the S312s were slightly more smooth.


Honda Civic 10th gen Using the OEM amp for clean line out(s). 1608397460964
 
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kostas

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Oh no sorry. I was talking about my home speakers. lol...

I had these JBL S312 3-way in early 2000s. The woofer is 12". Those babies were awesome. They don't make them like that anymore. lol...

1608397302624.png


These are what I have now. JBL L890 4-way. With two 8" woofers. Still pretty good, but the S312s were slightly more smooth.


1608397460964.png
Maybe different series - different quality. In general is so bad when a brand drops quality...
 

david.a3

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I don't have a scope so I recorded the signal with laptop and a good USB sound card!

In a probe to the subwoofer signal I didnt hear anything but it was just among other measurements so cant be 100% sure. If indeed there is no subwoofer signal, i expect to be different models...
20201217_233909.jpg
Hello, I have an Euro Civic 1.5 hatchback prestige 2017 and my amplifier type is 39186-TLG-G111-M1 LG1 GM-9368ZH. Did someone found solution to enable DTS or subwoofer channel?
 
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kostas

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Hello, I have an Euro Civic 1.5 hatchback prestige 2017 and my amplifier type is 39186-TLG-G111-M1 LG1 GM-9368ZH. Did someone found solution to enable DTS or subwoofer channel?
Hello, there are more Europeans who wanted to connect a sub to the OEM amp.
Till now I haven't heard any to have achieved that.
Btw, what do you need the DTS for??
 

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Part number is not the same as US models (39186-TGH-A02)
It makes sense now. A different xover freq is not a surprise.
US model also includes the tuner within the amplifier, unsure if Euro versions do the same.​
...I'm planning to install an 8"sub within a DIY box in the place where the US models have it. If lucky, go for 10". You think is enough? (never had a sub).
The replacement sub must match the impedence expected by the amplifier, else you'll fry it and/or the sub.​

I've seen it in various videos. Some people even cut those obstructive pieces of metal. It's gonna be a tedious process...
  • Do not cut the door skin opening for the speaker, as this is why speaker plates and spacers exist.
  • Depending on the height of the speaker being installed, you may need to trim the back of the door panel and you'll want to use closed-cell foam to seal the woofer to the door panel since you'll likely need to trim the plastic protrusion that seals the OEM speaker to the door panel.
  • For best results, a gasket material should be placed between the back of the speaker mounting plate and where it mates to the door skin (gasket material such as a thin peice of closed-cell foam or Hush Mat/SoundSkin)

I was puzzled with this amp, as many others, is not powerful enough and, even worse, with bad filters, and since the option for DSP amp is a bit expensive and mostly complicated, I decided to have a better look at this "black box".

Measuring the output at front speakers, I got... very high freq of crossover, around 6.5KHz when most common is around 3.5K.
  • The factory amp is meant to be efficient for the speakers it's powering and is not meant to be on par with aftermarket amps - even luxury cars have similar issues, as the OEM electrical engineers are trying to create an extremely efficient amp that will run on the minimum amount of current possible, else you run into current supply issues that can only be resolved through higher prices for a beefier alternator, higher CCA deep-cycle battery, and heavier gauge OFC automotive grade wiring
    • This isn't the wire you pick up in your local parts store, as OEM automotive wiring used by OEMs has an insulation jacket rating that makes it several times more expensive than common OFC wire
Even installing a good pair of speaker, would be a waste since a woofer can go up to 5KHz.
Depends on the woofer being utilized and the crossover settings being used, as you generally don't want a woofer playing 5KHz if there are sepate tweeters (crossover would be ~2700KHz [woofer] / ~4000KHz [tweeter])
Next step was to open up this thing in case I can do something about it... The findings were quite interesting, [with] a CPU and a DTS chip on the "soft" PCB. [T]he power side... uses TDA7569 as amps (hips that are being used from head units). Before the amps are... 2nd order Sallen-key filter crossovers.

Due to limited equipment and very small components, I managed to change only for the front speaker, [but] changing (correcting) the front xover is not enough for a good sound; searching a bit more, I realized you can have line-out for an external amp (there are all the signals [Front, Rear, Central, Sat, Sub] after the DTS part and before the xovers-amp.
  • The Front that I got is quite flat and full (I expect the same for the rest)
  • I also got a remote cable from Connector C, Pin 14 for turning ON the amp
  • With signal 90%, 70Hz line out: 1.55Vrms
Personally, I'll go with an amp for the front and add a sub (Europeans don't come with sub), leaving the rest to the OEM amp; in this way, you can amplify the signals you want without the need for DSP (and hopefully no echo in Handsfree calls due to lack of the aftermarket DSP's delay).
The amplifier/tuner does have direct connections to the Audio/Nav unit [sits directly behind the tablet headunit (it's a literal tablet with a molex connector on the back)] and testing would be recommended to determine if it's analog voltage or digital communications. Without the PCB schematics, this is a risky DIY mod for a multitude of reasons ranging from the tuner/amp is connected, via the Audio-Nav unit, to all major communications systems (BCAN, FCAN, SNET, BCM, and multiplex) to potential warranty issues for upstream systems.​
  • I'm not advocating against, with it more an FYI regarding potential risk, but am imploring thorough electrical testing and research to ensure such a mod isn't going to result in issues as should an issue occur that affects the audio-nav unit or other communication systems, a dealer troubleshoots, then Honda later discovers such a mod was employed, a hefty bill could come the owner's way if they determine the mod was the cause of the issue. Whether Honda would ever crack the tuner/amp casing to see the mod is questionable, but the possibility does exist, however slim.
While more expensive, the best route to go would be using an aftermarket DSP unit to return all signals to 0dB [flat], then re-calibrate via the aftermarket DSP, as Honda's OEM DSP is horrendous at best, especially on the subwoofer channel, which the rear 3.5" woofers (behind the trim directly above the rear seats) are summed to.​
  • JL Audio's FiX-82/FiX-86 is an example, which can then be input into an aftermarket amp or back to the OEM speakers, both able to auto-calibrate and the ability to use TUN software to customize the DSP
    • 82 has S/PDIF optical out and no rear fade
    • 86 has no optical out and rear fade
 


krash

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Very good information... I landed here searching for same kind of information for 8th gen Civic, '08 EX Coupe US model... Wish someone had done this research/documentation for the older models.
 

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Very good information... I landed here searching for same kind of information for 8th gen Civic, '08 EX Coupe US model... Wish someone had done this research/documentation for the older models.
Due to the inherent risk of such a mod without access to the PCB schematics or a good understanding of precisely how the tuner/amp interacts with all the upstream data communications, one would be wise to ask themselves whether the financial risk/reward is really worth it
  • e.g. is it worth saving the ~$300 that a good aftermarket DSP solution costs and risking ~$500+ if something goes wrong? This is a pro/con scenario, with each person weighing pros/cons differently, and for me, the risks of potential issues with upstream data systems heavily outweighs the money saved by not buying an aftermarket DSP
 

bikejog

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Ok finally got back to my car and was able to grab the following amplifier output measurements using a 20KHz BW RMS DMM. The xover point is pretty much the same as what @kostas measured. Everything was set to middle. SVC=0 and DTS=OFF. Volume at 28. Tone was generated using a function generator app over bluetooth and verified using the freq readings on the DMM. Speakers used was Focal k2 power 165 kr for both measurements.

First curve was completely stock config except for the Focals. The tweeter measurements from 6KHz thru 8KHz was kinda jittery. I'm not sure if this was due to a bad probe connection or perhaps the volume output was too low.

Second curve was my current config, using the same Focals, and it shows ~ 10db louder over stock at the same volume 28, but the xover point was similar.

Both responses started to roll off at around 16KHz and I'm not sure if this was due to the app over bluetooth or my DMM or the head unit or amp.

I slew the tone from 3KHz thru 8Khz and listened and TBH, it didn't sound bad. Yes there were some slightly noticeable volume changes from 6KHz to 7.5Khz, but there's also a slightly noticeable volume change from 3Khz thru 3.5Khz where the freq response was flat so the volume changes could also be contributed to physical attributes and it's hard to control in a car environment.

But overall, I'm pretty happy with my setup. ~10db louder over stock and TBH sounds pretty good.

Honda Civic 10th gen Using the OEM amp for clean line out(s). 1609186780881


Honda Civic 10th gen Using the OEM amp for clean line out(s). 1609189191044
 
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kostas

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Ok finally got back to my car and was able to grab the following amplifier output measurements using a 20KHz BW RMS DMM. The xover point is pretty much the same as what @kostas measured. Everything was set to middle. SVC=0 and DTS=OFF. Volume at 28. Tone was generated using a function generator app over bluetooth and verified using the freq readings on the DMM. Speakers used was Focal k2 power 165 kr for both measurements.

First curve was completely stock config except for the Focals. The tweeter measurements from 6KHz thru 8KHz was kinda jittery. I'm not sure if this was due to a bad probe connection or perhaps the volume output was too low.

Second curve was my current config, using the same Focals, and it shows ~ 10db louder over stock at the same volume 28, but the xover point was similar.

Both responses started to roll off at around 16KHz and I'm not sure if this was due to the app over bluetooth or my DMM or the head unit or amp.

I slew the tone from 3KHz thru 8Khz and listened and TBH, it didn't sound bad. Yes there were some slightly noticeable volume changes from 6KHz to 7.5Khz, but there's also a slightly noticeable volume change from 3Khz thru 3.5Khz where the freq response was flat so the volume changes could also be contributed to physical attributes and it's hard to control in a car environment.

But overall, I'm pretty happy with my setup. ~10db louder over stock and TBH sounds pretty good.

1609186780881.png


1609189191044.png
I'm quite satisfied that you found the same crossover freq.
But what is the difference between the 2 measurements? (Stock config vs your setup)
 

bikejog

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But what is the difference between the 2 measurements? (Stock config vs your setup)
I'll just leave it at it's a modified stock setup. To say what I said in my previous post about it being 10db louder is incorrect. It has +10db more output to the speakers as showed in my curves. I got +6db louder measured using a not-so-accurate Android Noise meter. And the summed output from 3K-10K is slightly emphasized compared to stock which is good given the crazy high xover points.

It slams much harder than stock and imo, that's all that matters in a car system! I'm an audio guy (not quite audiophile) and I don't feel the need to add anything more at this time.
 


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kostas

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Almost done! Only thing remains is the custom sub enclosure... And get together cables etc..
Honda Civic 10th gen Using the OEM amp for clean line out(s). 20210107_134025_HDR(1)
Honda Civic 10th gen Using the OEM amp for clean line out(s). 20210108_123034_HDR(1)
Honda Civic 10th gen Using the OEM amp for clean line out(s). 20210111_140414
Honda Civic 10th gen Using the OEM amp for clean line out(s). 20210111_171227
Honda Civic 10th gen Using the OEM amp for clean line out(s). 20210112_170157(1)
Honda Civic 10th gen Using the OEM amp for clean line out(s). 20210120_204221(1)

A lot of effort with cold weather...
The result? Just AMAZING!
And as I expected, there is absolutely no echo on phone calls with the HFT!!!
Totally recommended solution!
 

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Well done! Is there any echo without hft?
 
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kostas

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Well done! Is there any echo without hft?
I'm afraid I don't get you.. What do you mean?
I heard that people after installing DSP face echo problem during a call (and only there) using the hands free telephony of the car (if DSP inserts considerable delay, it's expected/makes sense).
So now I have none since there is no DSP.
 

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Do you mind posting the values of the capacitors and the pins for the outputs? I'm still liable to try for a kicker key 200.4, but if I could scrounge up a cheap part from the scrap yard I wouldn't mind trying the soldering. I've done enough rework that the soldering wouldn't scare me as much as the strain relief for the outputs. Did you ever try without an external amp or is that required?
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