Type R vs A45 AMG vs M3 competition

SichuanHot

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2018
Threads
5
Messages
115
Reaction score
61
Location
USA Midwest
Vehicle(s)
2018 Honda Civic Si Sedan
Country flag
Manual does not equal enthusiast in anyway shape or form. Is a base Corolla sedan an enthusiast vehicle because they offer manual? Is a Crosstrek an enthusiast vehicle because it has a manual option? Is the new Supra not an enthusiast vehicle because it lacks manual?

It's all just marketing, and you're falling for it.

Go to any track event and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. M3s are not an enthusiast car and the owners prove this.

Marketing.
Edit: https://automotivemap.com/bmw-m4-commercial-2021-2651327207.html
I think "enthusiast" is a rather subjective term with cars. Any car can have an enthusiast backing like there is with the first gen Insight and Prius cars.
I don't think the offering of a manual is all marketing. It take a lot of money to offer it in the first place. The ZF8 is great already, but having a manual option is icing on the cake for the discerning driver who wants the third pedal.
BMW has traditionally made cars from a sports perspective, and while they have become diluted recently, I think the G80 still qualifies as an enthusiast's car. Even the lease special 440i would be a fun, cushy RWD coupe to toss around. The point of recreational track days is to have fun and the BMW M cars deliver if you can afford it.
The same mentality was present when the F80 M3/4 and E90 gens were new. The new owners bring the stigma you allude to, but that goes away as the platform ages and the cars are bought second hand. The cycle renews.

Maybe offering a manual is just marketing, maybe Bmw cares ?!. But the question is: do real enthusiasts still care about these M3/M4/M5/M8 cars? Hint: at that weight they'll eat through consumables (pads, tyres) at a fast pace. Plus not exactly nimble from the handling pov.

I go sometimes to Norschleife. You rarely F80/F82s being tracked(unless the ring taxi companies that have one to give visitors rides). M2s you see a bit more often.
The fastest track car under 100k is still the Camaro ZL1 1LE and that is 100lbs shy of 4000lbs. It's no FSAE car but it's also no slouch for its weight - the tradeoff being more consumables as you mentioned. The F80 are a bit cheaper to own in the states, so it's probably different here.
Sponsored

 

Jwolf

I Think I'm Fast
Joined
Sep 23, 2019
Threads
12
Messages
592
Reaction score
545
Location
Toronto
Vehicle(s)
Toyota 86, '19 CTR, Some other stuff
Country flag
I think "enthusiast" is a rather subjective term with cars. Any car can have an enthusiast backing like there is with the first gen Insight and Prius cars.
I don't think the offering of a manual is all marketing. It take a lot of money to offer it in the first place. The ZF8 is great already, but having a manual option is icing on the cake for the discerning driver who wants the third pedal.
BMW has traditionally made cars from a sports perspective, and while they have become diluted recently, I think the G80 still qualifies as an enthusiast's car. Even the lease special 440i would be a fun, cushy RWD coupe to toss around. The point of recreational track days is to have fun and the BMW M cars deliver if you can afford it.
The same mentality was present when the F80 M3/4 and E90 gens were new. The new owners bring the stigma you allude to, but that goes away as the platform ages and the cars are bought second hand. The cycle renews.



The fastest track car under 100k is still the Camaro ZL1 1LE and that is 100lbs shy of 4000lbs. It's no FSAE car but it's also no slouch for its weight - the tradeoff being more consumables as you mentioned. The F80 are a bit cheaper to own in the states, so it's probably different here.
You're right, if you want to use any stretch of the word enthusiast, you could say basically anything is an enthusiast car.

I however, typically understand the word enthusiast in relation to cars when it is revolving around performance, as something designed first and foremost as a DRIVERS car. The M3/4 even M5, despite performance, are not of this category.

Don't get me wrong, manual is nice to have and I will buy them until they stop putting them on showroom floors, but this in no way shows that BMW wants the M3/4 to be a drivers car, that title was swiftly given to the M2, which is more reminiscent of the M3 of old.

People who want to drive their cars won't be looking for the current M3 in 15 years, they'll be lookin for M2s.
 

SichuanHot

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2018
Threads
5
Messages
115
Reaction score
61
Location
USA Midwest
Vehicle(s)
2018 Honda Civic Si Sedan
Country flag
You're right, if you want to use any stretch of the word enthusiast, you could say basically anything is an enthusiast car.

I however, typically understand the word enthusiast in relation to cars when it is revolving around performance, as something designed first and foremost as a DRIVERS car. The M3/4 even M5, despite performance, are not of this category.

Don't get me wrong, manual is nice to have and I will buy them until they stop putting them on showroom floors, but this in no way shows that BMW wants the M3/4 to be a drivers car, that title was swiftly given to the M2, which is more reminiscent of the M3 of old.

People who want to drive their cars won't be looking for the current M3 in 15 years, they'll be lookin for M2s.
I gotta disagree. The G8X M cars are just as much driver's cars as the M2C. Both are high performance cars built for handling and track use. The manual option in the G8X chassis - a chassis optimized for handling - only adds to driver engagement, not take away. Also, the G8X has a drift mode that ranks your drifts! While it is a gimmick, it's a gimmick made for drivers.

The M5 is a big, executive performance sedan, but the M3/4 still fall under fun, tossable cars built to handle and please the driver. A quick perusal of the BMW forums have some people discussing upgrading their M2 to the G8X.

As for the F8X M cars, their weight is very close to that of the M2C, so the overlap is greater than you might think and will be both sought after as "driver's cars."

In the same vein, the new IS500 that is keeping the NA V8 is about the same weight as the G8X M cars but is still very much made for the driver. Not many manufacturers are making a FR layout, high revving NA V8 these days.

Essentially, they're all driver's cars just made for different kinds of drivers depending on their preferences. The classification of what and what isn't a driver's car at this tier just ends up being arbitrary.
 

Jwolf

I Think I'm Fast
Joined
Sep 23, 2019
Threads
12
Messages
592
Reaction score
545
Location
Toronto
Vehicle(s)
Toyota 86, '19 CTR, Some other stuff
Country flag
I gotta disagree. The G8X M cars are just as much driver's cars as the M2C. Both are high performance cars built for handling and track use. The manual option in the G8X chassis - a chassis optimized for handling - only adds to driver engagement, not take away. Also, the G8X has a drift mode that ranks your drifts! While it is a gimmick, it's a gimmick made for drivers.

The M5 is a big, executive performance sedan, but the M3/4 still fall under fun, tossable cars built to handle and please the driver. A quick perusal of the BMW forums have some people discussing upgrading their M2 to the G8X.

As for the F8X M cars, their weight is very close to that of the M2C, so the overlap is greater than you might think and will be both sought after as "driver's cars."

In the same vein, the new IS500 that is keeping the NA V8 is about the same weight as the G8X M cars but is still very much made for the driver. Not many manufacturers are making a FR layout, high revving NA V8 these days.

Essentially, they're all driver's cars just made for different kinds of drivers depending on their preferences. The classification of what and what isn't a driver's car at this tier just ends up being arbitrary.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then because it seems like you're just about ready to call anything a drivers car.
 


AngryLettuce

Senior Member
First Name
Badger
Joined
Mar 27, 2021
Threads
7
Messages
87
Reaction score
57
Location
Great Britain
Vehicle(s)
2021 Type-R
Country flag
The car before my current CTR was an spanking AMG I financed. With a stage1 remap alone it made 609bhp, or as you guys like: 527whp. It was brutal and made filthy filthy noises.
The Merc's certainly take some beating, especially that 4.0V8TT. The A45 mapped will destroy a CTR in any acceleration test, but I doubt it's anywhere near as rewarding to drive as the Civic as it's very comuter-aided.

Like I said, my previous car was a new AMG (ÂŁ78k car) with a 9-speed punch-you-in-the-head gearbox, but it was an auto and the steering did lack accurate feedback. In my opinion the Honda is better for an enthusiast as it requires more input and offers better steering feel. The weight difference alone is a staring point when considering how quick you can travel through the twisties in the Civic.
 

VarmintCong

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Threads
49
Messages
1,640
Reaction score
869
Location
Taiwan
Vehicle(s)
2023 Ford Focus ST Line X (sold 2020 Si sedan)
Country flag
The car before my current CTR was an spanking AMG I financed. With a stage1 remap alone it made 609bhp, or as you guys like: 527whp. It was brutal and made filthy filthy noises.
The Merc's certainly take some beating, especially that 4.0V8TT. The A45 mapped will destroy a CTR in any acceleration test, but I doubt it's anywhere near as rewarding to drive as the Civic as it's very comuter-aided.

Like I said, my previous car was a new AMG (ÂŁ78k car) with a 9-speed punch-you-in-the-head gearbox, but it was an auto and the steering did lack accurate feedback. In my opinion the Honda is better for an enthusiast as it requires more input and offers better steering feel. The weight difference alone is a staring point when considering how quick you can travel through the twisties in the Civic.
I wonder what EVs will do to these high HP low involvement vehicles that are sold on fast acceleration? Not that you’d buy the EV instead but what’s the appeal of a 500 hp SUV or fat sedan that gets smoked by ordinary EVs at the stoplight?
 


SuperBaoser

Member
First Name
Bao
Joined
Apr 8, 2021
Threads
2
Messages
13
Reaction score
29
Location
Washington
Vehicle(s)
2018 BMW M3 CS, 2019 GTI
Country flag
thats not cross shopping though.
I cross shopped the new G80 M3 6-SPD as well as the current generation F87 M2-Competition, and ended up choosing the Type R.

As you can see in my profile, I owned both the M3 and GTI at the same time and the GTI's practicality was great, but lacked the power. I chose the Type R to hold me over until the new G87 M2 comp is released next year. Didn't want to purchase the F87 right now as its about to end product and be a dated platform.
 

AngryLettuce

Senior Member
First Name
Badger
Joined
Mar 27, 2021
Threads
7
Messages
87
Reaction score
57
Location
Great Britain
Vehicle(s)
2021 Type-R
Country flag
I suppose true drivers will always pick great handling over outright accelration. The lads at pub who rave about 0-60times live in a different world to the rest of us who can actually get a wriggle-on in the twisties.
I guess it will be a long way off before batteries are light enough that the cars can handle like an Elise, but even then I reckon they'll still be out of the financial reach of normal working blokes like me.
Sponsored

 


 


Top