Type R Sway Bar In Sport Causing Oversteer

cestjoel

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Honestly, I upgraded the sway bar in my Sport Hatch to the Type R sway bar without really knowing what results I would get. I noticed that turns are quicker and peppier. However, one time going at speeds of around 75 mph, I made a quick slight turn to avoid another driver hitting me, but it turned way to much that I had to over-compensate. The oversteer made it feel dangerous.

So, is this oversteer something that’s desirable? Can I upgrade the front sway bars to correct the oversteer a bit?

I’ve never made any mods to my previous cars; this is my first. So, go easy on me if this oversteer is known I formation. Thanks!
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Xtelotatichl

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...So, is this oversteer something that’s desirable? Can I upgrade the front sway bars to correct the oversteer a bit?
The answer to your first question depends on what you want out of your own car. With that said, anytime you upgrade a rear sway bar to something beefier and thicker you should expect more oversteer. This is desirable for some, and scary for others. Personally I like the oversteer myself as I track my car and this helps with cornering versus the understeer the cars normally come with.

Upgrading the front sway bars will balance things out and help correct the oversteering sensation.
 

5inn

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If you stiffen the front sway bar on a car, you'll get more understeer. If you stiffen the rear, you'll get more oversteer. In general FWD cars tend to understeer so people add a stiffer rear sway bar to negate some of that understeer.

If you wanted to balance out the oversteer added by the rear bar you could add a front bar, or go back to the stock rear bar.
 

curt d

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This is one of the things that that crossed my mind and made me settle on the SI rear bar.
I will also be driving in the occasional snow.
 

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This is one of the things that that crossed my mind and made me settle on the SI rear bar.
I will also be driving in the occasional snow.
Yep. I got the Si bar for the same reason. There's a reason car companies use relatively small rear bars in FWD cars. At the limit or in dangerous accident avoidance situations, they're more predictable and "safer". Of course, 95% of the time a car with a beefier rear bar will be much more fun to drive. I guess for my situation and the fact I drive in snow, I went with the more conservative upgrade.

Most people don't understand that even small differences in diameter (like the +1.5mm of the Si bar) make a big difference. Remember that the Type R has that big bar but also the entire suspension is beefed up on that car. It's all about balance. If you upgrade by 4mm on a stock 1.5 base turbo car, expect lift off oversteer when you least expect it. For expert drivers that might be fun, for others it's kinda scary.
 
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If you stiffen the front sway bar on a car, you'll get more understeer. If you stiffen the rear, you'll get more oversteer. In general FWD cars tend to understeer so people add a stiffer rear sway bar to negate some of that understeer.

If you wanted to balance out the oversteer added by the rear bar you could add a front bar, or go back to the stock rear bar.
If you wanted to balance out the car by adding a front sway bar, would there be a reason to add the rear one to begin with? Is there any benefit to getting (near) stock performance with replaced bars?
 

Ro_FK7

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Are you on factory suspension? I think most of the people experiencing oversteer on here still are. I'm sure with a nice coilover setup, tires, and other supporting mods the car would be fine with the Type-R/Progress rear sway
 

5inn

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If you wanted to balance out the car by adding a front sway bar, would there be a reason to add the rear one to begin with? Is there any benefit to getting (near) stock performance with replaced bars?
Good question.

With stock front and rear bars you'll have a relatively soft front and rear. If you add a stiffer rear bar, you'll get exactly that. If you add a stiffer front in addition to the stiffer rear, you'll dial out some of that oversteer the rear bar added but you'll get the benefit of the stiffness all around. You'll get less body roll/wallow-ness both front and rear.
 

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Good question.

With stock front and rear bars you'll have a relatively soft front and rear. If you add a stiffer rear bar, you'll get exactly that. If you add a stiffer front in addition to the stiffer rear, you'll dial out some of that oversteer the rear bar added but you'll get the benefit of the stiffness all around. You'll get less body roll/wallow-ness both front and rear.
Springs and dampers count for a lot, too; springs for roll stiffness and dampers for transitions.

I think changing the sway bars* without changing everything else is kinda pointless. A stiff bar with soft springs means the bar's effect gets magnified. In a turn, as the outside wheel gets compressed and raises the outside end of the bar, the inside end of the stiffer bar can push upwards harder than before, and it'll help lift the inside wheel from the road.

* Should they really be called something like "skid balance bars"?
 

5inn

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Springs and dampers count for a lot, too; springs for roll stiffness and dampers for transitions.

I think changing the sway bars* without changing everything else is kinda pointless. A stiff bar with soft springs means the bar's effect gets magnified. In a turn, as the outside wheel gets compressed and raises the outside end of the bar, the inside end of the stiffer bar can push upwards harder than before, and it'll help lift the inside wheel from the road.

* Should they really be called something like "skid balance bars"?
I’m confused as to how it’s pointless. Your example shows that it works. You can potentially get some inside rear wheel lift on tight turns, but that’s par for the course on a FWD car.
 


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I don't think adding a bigger rear bar is pointless at all. But you have to do it wisely. Just slapping on too big of a rear bar and nothing else could result in some unwanted and potentially dangerous handling in the wet and at the limit. It's all about balance. Grippier tires, adjusting front/rear tire pressure, stiffer springs etc. should be done in a way that creates a better handling car.

I know the in thing at this forum is to throw on the R bar on the regular Civics but people should be aware that it might cause some problems if pushed too hard.
 

BarracksSi

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I’m confused as to how it’s pointless. Your example shows that it works. You can potentially get some inside rear wheel lift on tight turns, but that’s par for the course on a FWD car.
Yeah, maybe "pointless" is the wrong word. "Unbalanced" or "unpredictable" would be better.

I should've said that jumping to a much stiffer bar without changing anything else can make the car handle unpredictably, and (I guess this is the "pointless" part) you're not going to discover exactly how much worse it is until you reach the new limits...

... and those limits aren't going to be reached on the street unless you find yourself in an emergency maneuver like the OP described. That's the worst time to be surprised by any altered handling characteristics of your car.
 

gtman

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... and those limits aren't going to be reached on the street unless you find yourself in an emergency maneuver like the OP described. That's the worst time to be surprised by any altered handling characteristics of your car.
I've mentioned this like 10 times to deaf ears on this board. Oh well. Guess its gonna take someone experiencing this issue in the worse case scenario for them to believe us.

I still contend that the Si bar is a good enough and safer upgrade over stock for the average driver.
 

BarracksSi

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I've mentioned this like 10 times to deaf ears on this board. Oh well. Guess its gonna take someone experiencing this issue in the worse case scenario for them to believe us.

I still contend that the Si bar is a good enough and safer upgrade over stock for the average driver.
I try to preach "tighten the nut behind the wheel first", too. I remember upgrading the suspension on my EP3, taking it to an autocross school, doing a run as fast as I could, then riding with the instructor as he drove my car a full eight seconds faster on the 60-second course than I did.

Damn. I had a lot to learn. Still do.
 

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I don't know that it need to be said but we should all know that all the mods we talk about here are done at your own risk, as far as safety and warranty are concerned.

And sway bars typically are the last tuning mod for the suspension behind tires, alignment, shocks, and springs, in that order. But it's been spread all around here (yes I'm guilty of that as well), that the Type R is a worthy upgrade considering its cost and ease of installation. What I haven't mentioned is the other mods I've done to the car, what mods I do have planned, what kind of driving I use it for, what kind of driving I'm capable of. None of theses things apply to anyone else exactly the same so always be aware of what you're trying to achieve.

So, yes, on its own, the CTR rear bar will bias the overall cornering balance to the rear. Ideally should be paired to an upgraded front bar. Is increased roll stiffness an advantage? In certain situations yes.
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