TSP Stage 1 vs Ktuner 19.5/23

[Alvin]

I have a stupid question that Is ktuner 19/21.5 mean already stage one? or Tsp stage one is a actual stage one?

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[charleswrivers]

I have a stupid question that Is ktuner 19/21.5 mean already stage one? or Tsp stage one is a actual stage one?

Two totally different things. 19/21.5 is a 19# sport mode off, 21.5# sport mode on map. They're free maps that are given as part of buying the Ktuner device and are a step under the 19/23# maps they also provide. Those maps are unlocked.

TSP Stage 1 is a locked map, make by Derek Robinson and sold through Two Step Performance. They come for free if you buy a Ktuner through them. The hottest map raises peak boost to 24.5# along for more timing advance to make the car have substantially more torque and horsepower than the Ktuner basemaps provide... with a 91/93 octane requirement, vice a recommendation given by Honda... which Ktuner still goes with as a recommendation.

See the difference in dynos:

 

[Tanuktun]

Two totally different things. 19/21.5 is a 19# sport mode off, 21.5# sport mode on map. They're free maps that are given as part of buying the Ktuner device and are a step under the 19/23# maps they also provide. Those maps are unlocked.

TSP Stage 1 is a locked map, make by Derek Robinson and sold through Two Step Performance. They come for free if you buy a Ktuner through them. The hottest map raises peak boost to 24.5# along for more timing advance to make the car have substantially more torque and horsepower than the Ktuner basemaps provide... with a 91/93 octane requirement, vice a recommendation given by Honda... which Ktuner still goes with as a recommendation.

See the difference in dynos:

Im curious to see how many people run tsp 1 with a cvt, I'm debating and they say it still holds benefit but it is also limited since the cvt can't hold that much torque

 

[mforcino]

Im curious to see how many people run two 1 with a cvt, I'm debating and they say it still holds benefit but it is also limited since the cvt can't hold that much torque

They do limit torque under 4000 rpm but it makes around 250 torque which it seems like most people would agree that any more on the cvt would hurt long term reliability. There’s tons of people that use TSP stage 1 on cvt’s with no problem. Most people also agree that TSP is even better than Ktuner and worth it.

 

[Tanuktun]

Just saw from your reply I didn't check my spelling, reeeeeeeee. But there in lies my hesitation because I'm pretty sure ktuner already is pushing 250 tq so there's not much benefit for me unless people think that there is some?

 

[mforcino]

Just saw from your reply I didn't check my spelling, reeeeeeeee. But there in lies my hesitation because I'm pretty sure ktuner already is pushing 250 tq so there's not much benefit for me unless people think that there is some?

It’s preference really. From experience, Ktuner gives you a really aggressive start and is great until you reach higher rpm’s. TSP seems slower at first but has much more power at high rpm’s. Keep in mind that TSP also uses a bit more psi in the turbo.

 

[Tanuktun]

It’s preference really. From experience, Ktuner gives you a really aggressive start and is great until you reach higher rpm’s. TSP seems slower at first but has much more power at high rpm’s. Keep in mind that TSP also uses a bit more psi in the turbo.

hmmm, dont know how i feel about that one....

guess ill hold what i got, i prefer the low end anyways, for now

 

[charleswrivers]

The stage 1 tune from TSP makes more peak power which the CVT will use to great effect as it will raise and hold the engine at peak power. Ktuner basemap will not make as much torque at higher RPMs to allow those higher horsepower numbers. They might feel the same for a moment in the midrange due to similar torque outputs but TSP will run away from a basemap car from making that greater torque at higher RPMs. I wouldn’t get wrapped up about peak torque; but where that torque is made. An extra 20 ft-lbs at 6000 RPMs is going to allow you to make over 20 hp. In the low/midrange... that same 20 ft-lbs will make a 10 hp difference. Making peak torque higher is what makes the most go-fast difference and while the CVTs might be less robust to big torque numbers... they shine reaching and holding the engine at its peak power band. If you’re not one that ever floors the car and allows it to hold high RPMs, and putts around and are looking for 2000-4000 punch and letting off quickly, then you’d still be well served by a basemap.

 

[Tanuktun]

The stage 1 tune from TSP makes more peak power which the CVT will use to great effect as it will raise and hold the engine at peak power. Ktuner basemap will not make as much torque at higher RPMs to allow those higher horsepower numbers. They might feel the same for a moment in the midrange due to similar torque outputs but TSP will run away from a basemap car from making that greater torque at higher RPMs. I wouldn’t get wrapped up about peak torque; but where that torque is made. An extra 20 ft-lbs at 6000 RPMs is going to allow you to make over 20 hp. In the low/midrange... that same 20 ft-lbs will make a 10 hp difference. Making peak torque higher is what makes the most go-fast difference and while the CVTs might be less robust to big torque numbers... they shine reaching and holding the engine at its peak power band. If you’re not one that ever floors the car and allows it to hold high RPMs, and putts around and are looking for 2000-4000 punch and letting off quickly, then you’d still be well served by a basemap.

god dammit, why are you changing my mind sir?!

 

[charleswrivers]

god dammit, why are you changing my mind sir?!

It's just all in how you use it. If you don't hold WOT and let the CVT do what it does best up top... better than a manual even... then I'd agree the basemap is going to do all you likely want. It's punchy, torquey in the low/midrange and allows for a quick spool and is a good step up from stock. If you floor it and with RPMS pinning in the 5500-6500 range and wishing there was more there though, TSP Stage 1 will answer that wish on an otherwise stock car... and no basemap will match it. It just depends on what you're after.

I've got an manual so I don't get to enjoy the trick of a CVT locking the engine at peak power.... but having power not drop off up top makes it more rewarding to rev the car out and not feel like short shifting might be just as well to revving it out. When engine torque is dropping too much in the last 1000 RPMs that giving up lower gearing that puts more torque to the wheel for that bigger slug of engine torque in the mid-range for seemingly the same actual acceleration... you know it's top-end is bad. TSP Stage 1 is a great Band-Aid for an undersized turbo that really rears it's ugly head once you ask it to move much more air than stock because it's not just the boost... but the timing it adds. The Si's flow slightly better and make a little more power but the difference in power between 4000-6000 RPM was very noticeable when looking at passing power... and I'm pretty dismissive of what a few hp here and there can do for you in an already-200-hp car. It takes a fair bit of power increase, to me, to say, "this did something I can really feel". For $80 or whatever they go for... for all the other parts and randomness you can buy, it's still excellent bang-for-the-buck than can be undone as simple as a reflash back if you decide it's not for you because 1) you decide you want to run 87 octane 2) you want the slightly faster spooling "punchier" characteristic the basemaps provide over TSP's more linear experience that rewards revving more or 3) You just simply choose to go back for whatever reason you may have. You're paying maybe $5 per-horsepower you gain over the basemap above 4000 RPMs all the time, and that's a bargain. You can't get much more than a drop-in filter for that much $$$.

In the Si, TSP match the power/weight ratio of a stock 2.0T Accord. Stock to TSP Stage 1 is transformative, and basemap to TSP really wakes the car up over 4000 RPMs... and makes the car struggle for traction in cool weather in the 1st 2 gears. To me... it was the different between the stock car's power being "ok" to having "plenty" and more than I could use effectively anyways on it's FWD platform with the limits of it's traction at sub-highway speeds. Rolling around at highway speeds and downshifting to pass? I find myself approaching triple digit speeds waiting for the whole "see both headlights in my rearview mirror" I was schooled to observe to determine a good pass with plenty of room to return to my own lane. It kind of stopped my modding as I sort of think the car is making as much usable power as I'd want the platform to have. I already use boost-by-gear to limit boost in 1st for traction and advanced VSA to retard timing as needed because of the traction limitations in 1st and 2nd. Any more power I gained would only be useful in 3rd gear and later. That's my thoughts and experience anyways.

 

[Tanuktun]

Now you're just overselling it

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