Tracking for the rest of us

samji

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I wanted to track my CTR, but after reading all the track junkie threads I gave that idea up and started messing with my S2000 again. As the car sits, there is no definite fix for the overheating issue, it's a design flaw. Everything seems to be a band-aid fix. You go from 3 laps to 5 laps before overheating, etc etc. I don't want to spend thousands to just make it better, I want it to be a non-issue so I can concentrate on laying down better times. I've been passively trying to get a new 2023 CTR through my work and start off fresh.

My take on the whole issue: it's a packaging problem, air can't escape the engine bay. If I was going to dedicate a FK8 to tracking, I would completely redesign the front radiator core support. It unbolts from the vehicle entirely. Make a new core support that kicks the radiator forward and attempt a "V mount" radiator and intercooler setup using a FL5 intercooler and a smaller 1.5T hatchback condenser to keep the A/C. Tilting the radiator in a V mount orientation allows you to fit a physically taller radiator. Pair it with the new FL5 water pump that flows more. Replace the factory impact beam with a bash bar to allow more room to tilt the radiator. Ditch the OEM hood in favor of a drop vent hood.

I honestly think spending time evacuating hot air from the engine compartment is the fix on the FK8. You need a larger pressure differential than what the OE configuration has. All the better cooling fixes have been by increasing the amount of air coming in (increasing inlet pressure) and by adding a vented hood (decreasing pressure behind radiator and using the low pressure zone a few inches up the hood line). That's what Honda did on their TCR car. Honda's BTCC CTR is running a V-mount setup. I've seen others add larger heat exchangers but not address the pressure differential problems and they just keep overheating.

Yeah I tracked mine a few times and realized this platform is gonna be really expensive to build and it's still not going to be fixed at the end unless you straight up build a TCR car... Like you, I picked up an s2000 again to just have as a dedicated track car and picked up a daily/beater as well haha.
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MediaMaster

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Hi all, after reading through most of the threads on this forum I thought some of us might want to share our experience with each other. I just started tracking last summer/fall. Got out for the first three times and said where has this been all my life. But I really have no desire to chase after the modification monkey, and the costs (time and money) that go with the chase. Rather I'd like to try and find innovative ways to eke a little more out of the car as is.

I've just started to get to the point where I will begin to get affected by the cooling issues this coming year. I'm pretty lucky to live where I do weather wise but we still see enough 80-90 degree days usually with humidity. During my last track day late in the day I sensed that the car was starting to pull power. The temp needle was up in the 3/4 area when I peeked at it. Up until then I simply was not fast enough to stress the car enough.

So now I'm trying to think outside the box a little and was wondering if anyone had tried using the hood scoop as an exhaust vent instead? If the scoop were turned around and faced the windshield would it function as an exhaust point? Or is there a way to make what is already there work better with fans or rerouting the airflow?
I did notice that the scoop seems to be a separate piece, although I know nothing about body panels on this car.

That said, the one area that I don't consider part of the modification issue are tires/wheels/brakes. We do have to stay safe and those parts are where it all starts. So after 35K miles and 2-3 track days it's time for new pads for me. I'm going with Paragon P3 front and rear for DD and I will change the front pads to R5 for track days.

My car: 2020
Stock power
Perrin RMM
Wheels: Motegi 19X8.5
Tires: Michelin Summer 255/35/19
For just cruising I throw the 20" wheels back on with 255/35/20 Michelin. Much better ride than the 30 series tires.
Sunset.jpg
So I welcome all who have an interest in tracking and hope we can all help each other become a little quicker safely.
2023 Track dates:
https://www.roadamerica.com/track-days
https://www.tracknightinamerica.com...pTYGx7Bw-EaaK8g0_R1yY7ATZAc9oPDyX8bVyX-uadB90
 

dsm_mikey

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MediaMaster fyi...I am trading in my FK8 on a new FL5 and I am pulling off all of the cooling parts and putting back to stock.

I have an oem hood with track spec cooling vents added (huge help), C&R Radiator, secondary radiator, C&R intercooler, bigger grill

The biggest help for you if temps are somewhat managed already for you would be the vented hood. Mine is black, so you could have it painted to match your car and it will bolt right on. Having said that, the C&R radiator is a no brainer as well...

With all of the mods above the car was able to keep temps under control! Peak speeds at the last lap at the straights were within 1 mph of the 1st lap!

88 degree day. I was very happy to finally sort it!

One thing to remember...I am not tuned and do not have any go fast parts. No intake or exhaust. I do have a C&R intercooler. If you add a tune or other go fast parts it changes things...I really like the stock power for this car...when it maintains lets say 90-95% of stock power while lapping, it is a quick little car, even at a big track like Road America. When power gets pulled because of heat soak, times drop by roughly 4-5 seconds PER LAP!! It is so frustrating!

If you want the parts, let me know...I would love to help out a fellow Road America lover! If interested, you could have the parts installed by the same place that is pulling them off my car...they have had plenty of practice putting on and taking off the various cooling parts over the last 2 years!

I am somewhat nervous going to the FL5 platform after finally sorting overheating issues with the FK8! I really hope I don't have to go through similar issues again. If my 2 sets of 18" track wheels (with 3 sets of tires!) and 8 sets of nib Hawk DTC60 brake pads wouldn't fit the new FL5, I probably wouldn't be changing cars, but they do...so here we go!

I am hoping to put it on track the last weekend of April. Road America has been completely repaved so it will be hard to compare lap times directly. I will be focused on cooling more than ultimate times initially. I overheated the Fk8 with a track spec C&R radiator with the oem hood and oem grill (no secondary radiator) within 3 laps in 58 degree weather 2 years ago, so I hope to know pretty quickly how robust the FL5 cooling is.

I am hopeful that it will work right out of the box. If I have to throw a race radiator at it, not a big deal...just hoping there is no need for a secondary radiator, grill, etc...

Hope to see you at Road America this year!
 
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GavinOC

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I don’t usually delve into track discussions, as I don’t use my car for track.

A radiator or similar is simply a heat exchanger - more surface area will dissipate heat more quickly. The cause, effect and solution all follow the principles of thermodynamics. Air flow and ambient temperature are factors.

Alphadigitals question on the larger turbo - the answer would be sensible heat - cause and effect.

Our stock hood scoop and wing vents work like a pull through fan or a pass through system: air flows through the scoop and out the wing vent, pulling engine bay hot air with it. It’s one of the reasons the undercarriage is closed off.

The above is meant to be constructive and helpful. I’m growing tired of watching companies sling parts or YouTubers sensationalize issues that they don’t understand. Fixing these issues isn’t overly complex if you understand the reason(s) behind them.
 
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AlphaDigital

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I don’t usually delve into track discussions, as I don’t use my car for track.

A radiator or similar is simply a heat exchanger - more surface area will dissipate heat more quickly. The cause, effect and solution all follow the principles of thermodynamics. Air flow and ambient temperature are factors.

Alphadigitals question on the larger turbo - the answer would be sensible heat - cause and effect.

Our stock hood scoop and wing vents work like a pull through fan or a pass through system: air flows through the scoop and out the wing vent, pulling engine bay hot air with it. It’s one of the reasons the undercarriage is closed off.

The above is meant to be constructive and helpful. I’m growing tired of watching companies sling parts or YouTubers sensationalize issues that they don’t understand. Fixing these issues isn’t overly complex if you understand the reason(s) behind them.
There are a handful of X factors to consider when trying to keep these cars cool. In a perfect world, we would be able to just increase the size of the heat exchangers, provide more airflow and voila, problem solved.

But we see it time and time again. People buy the best radiators, best intercoolers, vented hoods and problems get fixed. Other people do it and the problem persists.

Ambient temp
Fuel
Driving Style
Tuning
Track

All things that have a huge impact on how hard you go can go in a 20 minute session before the car starts pulling timing, which according to Kefi when I spoke with him a while back, is when the car hits 240+. Some of these things are also a bit harder to quantify in terms of its impact on ECT, as it can vary significantly from car to car, driver to driver, track to track.

Thats another thing I see is, peoples definition of overheating seems to vary. Some people say its as soon as the gauge moves past 1/2, other people say its when the gauge is just about filled. I think its any heat that triggers the ECU to pull power and interfere with your lapping.

In theory, it can be diluted down to thermodynamics. Simply increase surface area, air flow, and fluid to allow heat to dissipate and youve solved your problems but its not the case otherwise we would have a nice one size fits all solution but we dont. In all honesty though, the best thing ive seen so far that seems to have made a significant impact for some very fast guys, even in hot weather is the auxiliary radiator that Byron, Eddy, Aaron, and Jason are using.
 
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Gansan

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I am somewhat nervous going to the FL5 platform after finally sorting overheating issues with the FK8! I really hope I don't have to go through similar issues again. If my 2 sets of 18" track wheels (with 3 sets of tires!) and 8 sets of nib Hawk DTC60 brake pads wouldn't fit the new FL5, I probably wouldn't be changing cars, but they do...so here we go!

I am hoping to put it on track the last weekend of April. Road America has been completely repaved so it will be hard to compare lap times directly. I will be focused on cooling more than ultimate times initially. I overheated the Fk8 with a track spec C&R radiator with the oem hood and oem grill (no secondary radiator) within 3 laps in 58 degree weather 2 years ago, so I hope to know pretty quickly how robust the FL5 cooling is.

I am hopeful that it will work right out of the box. If I have to throw a race radiator at it, not a big deal...just hoping there is no need for a secondary radiator, grill, etc...

Hope to see you at Road America this year!
@dsm_mikey , once you get a chance to track your FL5 hard in stock form, please do come back and update us on how it went. The cooling situation will greatly influence whether I bother to update to the FL5.
 
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dsm_mikey

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Gansan, I absolutely will give feedback on here once I get it on track. I really, really hope it is pretty close to good enough for cooling in stock form!

I will be putting on the same wheels and tires I run with the FK8 (Enkei 18x9.5 & 265/35/18 Hankook RS4) and same brake pads I use on the FK8 (Hawk DTC 60's front, Raybestos ST43 Rear & Castrol SRF)

I am excited...let's gooooo!
 

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@dsm_mikey , once you get a chance to track your FL5 hard in stock form, please do come back and update us on how it went. The cooling situation will greatly influence whether I bother to update to the FL5.
I figure if the FK8 overheats stock, should the FL5 overheat as well AT LEAST it's a better starting point to work with. There is way more room in the FL5 engine bay and in the front bumper area than the FK8. I got to PDI the only one our dealership got and I spent like an hour just nerding out and trying to dig into all the differences between my FK8, a FK8 LE and the FL5.

I like the evolution of the US CTR versions. As they go on they keep improving and you can tell the engineers are actually listening to concerns. Literally every complaint I've ever heard about a FK8 has been addressed in the FL5.

If I can add a racing radiator and a large oil cooler, I'll call it a day and just log laps in the stock setup.
 
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For all those who were wondering the lapping results are in and we can now compare how much faster the new FL5 is: 2:58.8 for the new CTR vs 3:00.7 for the Limited model that ran last year. If you look back the 2018 model ran the course in 3:03.9 so the CTR just keeps getting better.

It would seem the Honda engineers are listening and continue to make some of the improvements we desire. I sure hope they worked at the cooling issues better than they have done. I know it's not supposed to be a lapping monster right out of the gate, but when I see experienced drivers go into limp mode so easily....
 

MadMage

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For all those who were wondering the lapping results are in and we can now compare how much faster the new FL5 is: 2:58.8 for the new CTR vs 3:00.7 for the Limited model that ran last year. If you look back the 2018 model ran the course in 3:03.9 so the CTR just keeps getting better.
You know better than this :) What track? What tires? What ambient temps?
 


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MediaMaster

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You know better than this :) What track? What tires? What ambient temps?
Sorry, was in a bit of a hurry.

Virginia International Raceway a 4 mile circuit. They test at the same track every year. Same time of year each year also. I would need to do much further research to compare weather temps - from what I know daily temps are 50-60 range normally. They are pretty good at keeping everything comparable including multiple drivers of each vehicle. BTW new CTR beat the Corolla GR by .8 sec, Gr was a Morizo edition. Cup 2 tires that come "standard" on both cars.

Their website will have all the results and video of this years cars on Tuesday the 7th.
 
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Sorry, was in a bit of a hurry.

Virginia International Raceway a 4 mile circuit. They test at the same track every year. Same time of year each year also. I would need to do much further research to compare weather temps - from what I know daily temps are 50-60 range normally. They are pretty good at keeping everything comparable including multiple drivers of each vehicle. BTW new CTR beat the Corolla GR by .8 sec, Gr was a Morizo edition. Cup 2 tires that come "standard" on both cars.

Their website will have all the results and video of this years cars on Tuesday the 7th.
Here's the link to the CTR running the circuit

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a42387050/2023-honda-civic-type-r-lightning-lap-2023/
 
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MediaMaster

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Starting to get ramped up for the coming track season. Took a look at the schedule for my local track (RA) and found 8 dates so far...mmmm OK I'll do them all.

Got the front pads changed and I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was. For anyone thinking about it go ahead. I followed fatherpain's advice (great pictures too) with the tips by Dave B that were very helpful. Was also encouraged by MadMage and I really appreciate all the great help and advice on this site.

That said my next challenge is to do the rear pads. I will once again try to find the best advice I can from this site. So if anyone has any tips let me know. This will also include a full fluid flush at the end with new Castrol SRF going in.

I've assembled all the tools including an Auto AP200 and a brake caliper winding tool set. Now I just need the courage to try. And a lot of time.
 
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Man I wish there were as many non Type R owners tracking their cars as Type R owners do haha. I will say one of the nice things about only having ~240hp is that I never have to worry about overheating or adding cooling mods. I'm normally able to get within 2-3s of well driven CTRs at most tracks too.

Also, since I haven't seen it mentioned yet, running less coolant and more water will also help the cooling system work more effectively. I've been running our FK7 at around 80/20 water/coolant during the spring and summer. For Winter time I drain a bit out and keep adding concentrate until the freeze point is adequate for our normal winter temps.

Oh, and OP for your rear brakes if you haven't done them yet I'd like to mention our bronze guide pin bushings which replace the factory rubber bushings. They do a great job at evening out rear brake pad wear without really any downsides! LINK
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