The Infamous 2nd Gear Crunch

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apk

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Thanks for this update. Those parts would dovetail with the gears I have issues with. I might be able to hang in till next spring.
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baldheadracing

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Hi Guys, my first post here and the question..

Can You please send the link to the sources (that Canadian group) where i can read something more about new parts that will be fitted in the gearbox?

We have the same problem here in EU and lot of people wants to know what is the potential issue and fix.

Cheers from PL.
I haven't read anything more about the new parts, just that the new parts are supposed to be coming in December (at Canadian dealers waiting for parts). I'm not expecting to read any details - look at the engine wiring harness TSB ...

In any case, just like with the engine wiring harness replacement, I'd be willing to bet that any parts or TSB will show up in the USA first, so - just like the info that the parts have been discontinued - it will be posted on this forum first.

The Canadian FB group is closed, and, to be honest, if you don't know who the people are (and where they work), then you will have an impossible job of figuring out whether a poster is venting, expressing wishful thinking, or actually knows something. There are not-a-few rumours there (and here, and anywhere).
 

FunThomas

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Thanks. So actually nobody knows what is the real problem. And as in other places around the world suggestions are to change fluids, mount thermo-shield, etc but at the end is just random issue that can appear unexpected.
 

CTR1633FK2

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Thanks. So actually nobody knows what is the real problem. And as in other places around the world suggestions are to change fluids, mount thermo-shield, etc but at the end is just random issue that can appear unexpected.
There might be multiple problems. I don't think it is random. Just that every car has a different issue.
 

FunThomas

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I meant that issue can appear in random car. About the rest I agree with You.

Your FK2 is fine?
 


Severedninja

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Honda just needs to give up making transmission in-house. If only Allison made transmissions for cars too :(
 

UFO CTR

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Empirically, multiple people who have done the mod (and other shifter mods) have posted that they still have gear grind.

Mechanically, gear grind (and the eventual 1st gear lockout) is a synchronizer issue, not a shifter issue.

In any transmission, synchronizers fail for three reasons:
1. Issues with the synchronizer assembly itself, either by design, materials, or normal wear;
2. Issues with lack of full clutch disengagement; and/or
3. Driver error/abuse.

As for the cause given the reasons, there are multiple possibilities. Two have been identified so far:
1. some early production cars did not have a full fill of transmission fluid; and
2. the clutch slave cylinder is awfully close to the downpipe/cat. If the slave got hot enough to boil the fluid, then the clutch would never fully disengage. This was identified as a cause in the FK2.

However, recently, the internal transmission components that would be possible suspects - the countershaft and the 2nd gear countershaft assembly (which includes the synchromesh assembly), are no longer available and have been discontinued by Honda. (The fifth and sixth assemblies have also been discontinued.) It was posted in the Canadian FB group that new parts are coming in December. Hopefully a TSB will come out soon thereafter.
thanks, but then there are two parts to shifting...(1) is clutch and the (2) is the shifter. the shifter assembly is "mechanical", so if there are any "slack" in the mechanical linkage, wouldn't that cause shifting issues? just trying to understand further and help debug the issue.
 

baldheadracing

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thanks, but then there are two parts to shifting...(1) is clutch and the (2) is the shifter. the shifter assembly is "mechanical", so if there are any "slack" in the mechanical linkage, wouldn't that cause shifting issues? just trying to understand further and help debug the issue.
Not sure if I can explain this decently ... but, let's assume a working transaxle and shifter. Let's imagine that the synchros were removed (imagine because I'm simplifying). Consider shifting with the engine off. You can shift into each gear. Thus, the shifter works. The shift might not feel as nice with rubber bushings, but the shifter works. (As an aside, if you want awesome feel, then get the upcoming ACUITY shifter to go along with the cable bushings that you have.)

Okay, now, assume that the clutch is not working. Start the car in 1st gear, and the car will (with some effort) move off. Try shifting into 2nd quickly. You'll probably get horrific grinding noises, and probably won't be able to get into 2nd. Start over again, but this time when shifting, pause the shifter in neutral until the engine rpms fall to where they should be if you were already in 2nd gear at the speed that the car is going (ok, just a bit above to be exact). Pull the shifter to move into 2nd gear, and the transmission will slide into 2nd.

Now, you don't actually need to match the speeds/rpms because that's what the synchros do - but they only do that within the transmission, of course. Outside of the transaxle, the clutch couples/uncouples the engine from the rest of the drivetrain.

NOTE: I am not saying to try this on your Type R. Clutchless shifting is a forgotten shifting skill best mastered on someone else's car!

Sorry if that explanation is as clear as mud. More about synchro's: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_transmission#Synchronized_transmission
 

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I meant that issue can appear in random car. About the rest I agree with You.

Your FK2 is fine?
Yes, no grind in the beginning, but everything is smoother after removing the CDV valve. Much smoother than my old S2000 and DC2R.
 


jasonjm

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Here is what I recommend.

Now, I don’t have the gear grind issue. However I’m willing to help. Some of you may have seen my posts, and my theories.

We need someone who will take point on this. Someone that has the issue, is mechanically somewhat inclined, and who is willing to live without the car for some time. It cannot be your daily driver. And most likely won’t be able to recoup the time lost, only the satisfaction that the problem is closer to being solved.

While this person and car is being found, we set up a go fund me page. I’d be willing to donate some money to help the cause. The money will have to be managed by yet another different person whom will be a “Treasurer”.

We take the car’s transmission to a reputable transmission engineering firm to analyze, using the go fund me money.

If a case can be brought with the evidence from the analysis you can best be sure the lawyers will show up out of the wood work. With a prior known case in history, it will only look worse for Honda.

Now again I want to make it clear, I like my car. I don’t have the issue, but I’d be willing to see this seemingly common issue be resolved so that even someday I won’t have to worry about it. Be it in the next 1k, or 50k miles.

And yes, I believe you guys are having genuine issues.
 

NorcalR

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Here is what I recommend.

Now, I don’t have the gear grind issue. However I’m willing to help. Some of you may have seen my posts, and my theories.

We need someone who will take point on this. Someone that has the issue, is mechanically somewhat inclined, and who is willing to live without the car for some time. It cannot be your daily driver. And most likely won’t be able to recoup the time lost, only the satisfaction that the problem is closer to being solved.

While this person and car is being found, we set up a go fund me page. I’d be willing to donate some money to help the cause. The money will have to be managed by yet another different person whom will be a “Treasurer”.

We take the car’s transmission to a reputable transmission engineering firm to analyze, using the go fund me money.

If a case can be brought with the evidence from the analysis you can best be sure the lawyers will show up out of the wood work. With a prior known case in history, it will only look worse for Honda.

Now again I want to make it clear, I like my car. I don’t have the issue, but I’d be willing to see this seemingly common issue be resolved so that even someday I won’t have to worry about it. Be it in the next 1k, or 50k miles.

And yes, I believe you guys are having genuine issues.
Ya somebody souls buy that tranny in the classifieds 4 $2,000 and tear it down it a good donor
 

Gfrank

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Ya somebody souls buy that tranny in the classifieds 4 $2,000 and tear it down it a good donor
I am glad to see that people are still looking for an answer to our transmission issues. My car had 300 miles when I first encountered my second gear crunching. After a dance with the Honda engineer over several months, I was told that a replacement transmission would be necessary. The noise and feel was so bad that I decided to do it. The dealer performed the install perfectly and were extremely professional and helpful. The car had around 3000 miles when replaced. I have 12,000 presently. However, almost immediately after, I began to experience not only the 1-2 gear issue but also the 5-4 lockout, sometimes 2-3 lockout and just recently to top it off a fourth gear downshift crunch...I am an experienced driver like most people who purchase these cars. I do feel some additional slop in the shifting feel as someone mentioned. Is it possible that because I am experiencing multiple issues as described that the cable could just be loose or poorly designed? Can't be that simple....I have a service coming up soon. Is it worth having them check that?. I hope they come out with the fix. It is very frustrating....
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