Stop worrying so much about oil brand

[ebatr24]

Agreed, he is being very condescending for no reason at all. people who race and flog on their cars for a living have said that in climates that are hot or if you have extreme driving conditions or race a lot, moving to 5w-30 is a good idea. I've seen no loss in mpgs by switching and I ordered my blackstone labs kit this weekend. And yeah, most of these cars when picked up from teh dealer or after a visit to Discount Tire come out with 50 psi in the tires. like wtf. clearly the door sill says 33 or 35 but hey 50 is fine

I didn't see a loss in MPG either, at least not until I got a flex fuel kit but that is probably due to my heavy foot enjoying the extra power still averaging about 31 combined city and highway though with many pulls

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[charleswrivers]

i do.....

and my last civic (2005) lasted me 14 years and about 225,000 miles without breaking down once....coincidence?.....i don't think so

it still ran like new when i sold it,

a lot of peoples problems would not happen if they just stick to OEM products, and do the maint suggested in their owners manual at the intervals suggested,

its there for a reason

We've got plenty of threads on here showing other MTFs having superior shifting performance to Honda's MTF. I've gone away from Honda's MTF on 3 Honda/Acura cars now and enjoyed better shifting on their manuals. The K-series cars with that particular transmission was never happy with Honda's MTF with a little grind and notchiness and 3rd gear pop out being common. The notchiness has carried over to this one mated to an L. I trust my right hand to judge shifting performance.

My Odyssey and last Civic both shipped with Continental Pro Contacts. The Odyssey had a blowout from the sidewall when the tires still had plenty of thread. The '15 Civic had sidewall bulges when I traded it. 2 different cars 1 year apart... both with having the same defect on the same tire, albeit different sizes? Tons of bad noise on the internet about those specific tires... I just can't feel like it's a coincidence. It's a poor product that was picked as the OEM tire option. One issue I could have shrugged off as bad luck. A failure with another defect that could go into a failure on a completely other vehicle with the same tires... plus noise on here... the Odyforum and at random tire-information sites on the internet? I consider that a credible trend to show it wasn't a very good product.

I can appreciate the idea that OEM products are supposed to be of decent quality... but to think that, as a rule, whatever ships as OEM is best simply doesn't holds water to me. Tires... filters... fluids... battery... any wear item or consumable... staying OEM is not a prerequisite to making it to 14 years or 225k. Plenty of early failures being replaced prior to the prorate on the shipped batteries for the CivicXs as well.

When it comes to wear items like batteries and tires specifically... I am of the opinion these are like the insoles that come with shoes you buy. They're good enough to get you out the door.. but there are far superior products available that have ratings to back them up.

The majority of vehicles, regardless of make or model should do this with replacement of the wear/consumable items plus brakes and suspension and maybe throwing an alternator/starter/O2 sensor in there for fun. In this day and age... 225k and 14 years is worn-in, not necessarily worn-out with regard to the powertrain... most folks just don't hold onto things that long. Most totaled cars in the junkyard have working powertrains to pick through so long as it wasn't directly damaged. While I agree regular maintenance on a car should easily make it last this long with normal operation... I can't get behind the idea you must use OEM fluids/consumables/parts for longevity or that it is a detriment to use others. Whereas manuals used to cover a significant amount of maintenance and provide more variability for the end-user... the manuals Honda's has been releasing as of late make our cars seem like some special thing that needs a specific this or that or must be serviced by a dealer to be taken care of properly. Past the A/C needing this... as you're supposed to have HVAC certs to do work on them technically... as you're not supposed to be releasing Freon into the environment all willy-nilly and they're going to pretty much tell you to take it in for A/C service... the idea that oil viscosity requirements aren't still temperature dependent... the lack of EU vehicles getting onboard with 20 weight oils still today (EU Civics still call for 30 weight oils last time I looked)

I'm not saying you're wrong to think you car should be ok with Honda parts/fluids/filters/etc... nor do I think it is wise to do maintenance at longer periodicities than the MM specifies... and short-cycling will not cause any harm, though I may not help other than to lighten your wallet. I just don't agree at all with the use of 3rd party parts/fluids/filters/etc... or the idea that the end-user couldn't/shouldn't maintain their own vehicles as they see fit... though manuals of late have removed much of what used to provide the end-user information on how to maintain their own vehicles. The manual only states it's a recommendation to use them right off the bat in the beginning of the maintenance section. While we are given how to change the oil and filter and how to change washer blades and add washer fluid and bulbs... we aren't given how to drain/fill coolant... only fill... it tells you not to check/change MTF or the CVTs ATF… but to bring it in to the dealer. Specifically the MTs are really no different than how we did the changes on the earlier Civics which used to be included in the manual. Heck... they don't even have how you change the cabin filter. All these, to me, point to a push to keep the end-user from being able to maintain his/her vehicle properly and push us back to the dealer. That's something that frustrates me to no end. Maintenance on ICE powered hasn't changed much in decades... if anything... it's gotten easier with things like greasing zerk fittings and adjusting valve clearance pretty much disappearing. Ever since OBDII hit in '96, car issues have been very easy to diagnose and repair by the end user. It's never been easier to maintain or diagnose issues with a car as it is today... but the manuals have gotten amazingly dumbed down.

Back to the oil... I have no issue with Honda gaining ~2% more economy fleet-wide by making a change to 20 weight oils from 30 weight oils. I do think there was plenty of testing to ensure that unmodified engines through normal use would be plenty reliable to maintain Honda's good reputation, and the MM does provide some adjustment for use severity on those same unmodified engine. Testing on 0w-16 has been going on overseas for a couple decades... and I bet we'll see it eventually here for another tiny but measurable improvement in mpgs for a manufacturers fleet... but lubricating 'good enough' doesn't mean 'better'. There is a balance between flow and film... and improving one can compromise the other... though modern lubricants are far superior to older ones and shouldn't be directly compared as standards change. Again, without readily available fleet information with the only variable being oil viscosity used being available to us... then it becomes an argument no one have data to back up to prove anything one way or the other.

The idea that other oil viscosities however, depending on operating conditions and the environment are automatically improper just doesn't make sense. It isn't supported by all the information we have... or in how EU vehicles call for 30 weight oils. Our oil viscosity is shown as a recommendation... not a requirement. Across all parts, it's still on the end-user to use whatever parts he/she feels is best. Making the end-user be required to buy branded products specifically for the sake of warranty specifically is a violation of Magnuson-Moss... and that's something you won't see in your manual. Recommendations may be made... but requirements for use of branded products are outright illegal. Tie-in sales could otherwise be abused by charging sky-high prices for parts/services with the threat of warranty cancellation.

 

[fitter_here]

We've got plenty of threads on here showing other MTFs having superior shifting performance to Honda's MTF. I've gone away from Honda's MTF on 3 Honda/Acura cars now and enjoyed better shifting on their manuals. The K-series cars with that particular transmission was never happy with Honda's MTF with a little grind and notchiness and 3rd gear pop out being common. The notchiness has carried over to this one mated to an L. I trust my right hand to judge shifting performance.

My Odyssey and last Civic both shipped with Continental Pro Contacts. The Odyssey had a blowout from the sidewall when the tires still had plenty of thread. The '15 Civic had sidewall bulges when I traded it. 2 different cars 1 year apart... both with having the same defect on the same tire, albeit different sizes? Tons of bad noise on the internet about those specific tires... I just can't feel like it's a coincidence. It's a poor product that was picked as the OEM tire option. One issue I could have shrugged off as bad luck. A failure with another defect that could go into a failure on a completely other vehicle with the same tires... plus noise on here... the Odyforum and at random tire-information sites on the internet? I consider that a credible trend to show it wasn't a very good product.

I can appreciate the idea that OEM products are supposed to be of decent quality... but to think that, as a rule, whatever ships as OEM is best simply doesn't holds water to me. Tires... filters... fluids... battery... any wear item or consumable... staying OEM is not a prerequisite to making it to 14 years or 225k. Plenty of early failures being replaced prior to the prorate on the shipped batteries for the CivicXs as well.

When it comes to wear items like batteries and tires specifically... I am of the opinion these are like the insoles that come with shoes you buy. They're good enough to get you out the door.. but there are far superior products available that have ratings to back them up.

The majority of vehicles, regardless of make or model should do this with replacement of the wear/consumable items plus brakes and suspension and maybe throwing an alternator/starter/O2 sensor in there for fun. In this day and age... 225k and 14 years is worn-in, not necessarily worn-out with regard to the powertrain... most folks just don't hold onto things that long. Most totaled cars in the junkyard have working powertrains to pick through so long as it wasn't directly damaged. While I agree regular maintenance on a car should easily make it last this long with normal operation... I can't get behind the idea you must use OEM fluids/consumables/parts for longevity or that it is a detriment to use others. Whereas manuals used to cover a significant amount of maintenance and provide more variability for the end-user... the manuals Honda's has been releasing as of late make our cars seem like some special thing that needs a specific this or that or must be serviced by a dealer to be taken care of properly. Past the A/C needing this... as you're supposed to have HVAC certs to do work on them technically... as you're not supposed to be releasing Freon into the environment all willy-nilly and they're going to pretty much tell you to take it in for A/C service... the idea that oil viscosity requirements aren't still temperature dependent... the lack of EU vehicles getting onboard with 20 weight oils still today (EU Civics still call for 30 weight oils last time I looked)

I'm not saying you're wrong to think you car should be ok with Honda parts/fluids/filters/etc... nor do I think it is wise to do maintenance at longer periodicities than the MM specifies... and short-cycling will not cause any harm, though I may not help other than to lighten your wallet. I just don't agree at all with the use of 3rd party parts/fluids/filters/etc... or the idea that the end-user couldn't/shouldn't maintain their own vehicles as they see fit... though manuals of late have removed much of what used to provide the end-user information on how to maintain their own vehicles. The manual only states it's a recommendation to use them right off the bat in the beginning of the maintenance section. While we are given how to change the oil and filter and how to change washer blades and add washer fluid and bulbs... we aren't given how to drain/fill coolant... only fill... it tells you not to check/change MTF or the CVTs ATF… but to bring it in to the dealer. Specifically the MTs are really no different than how we did the changes on the earlier Civics which used to be included in the manual. Heck... they don't even have how you change the cabin filter. All these, to me, point to a push to keep the end-user from being able to maintain his/her vehicle properly and push us back to the dealer. That's something that frustrates me to no end. Maintenance on ICE powered hasn't changed much in decades... if anything... it's gotten easier with things like greasing zerk fittings and adjusting valve clearance pretty much disappearing. Ever since OBDII hit in '96, car issues have been very easy to diagnose and repair by the end user. It's never been easier to maintain or diagnose issues with a car as it is today... but the manuals have gotten amazingly dumbed down.

Back to the oil... I have no issue with Honda gaining ~2% more economy fleet-wide by making a change to 20 weight oils from 30 weight oils. I do think there was plenty of testing to ensure that unmodified engines through normal use would be plenty reliable to maintain Honda's good reputation, and the MM does provide some adjustment for use severity on those same unmodified engine. Testing on 0w-16 has been going on overseas for a couple decades... and I bet we'll see it eventually here for another tiny but measurable improvement in mpgs for a manufacturers fleet... but lubricating 'good enough' doesn't mean 'better'. There is a balance between flow and film... and improving one can compromise the other... though modern lubricants are far superior to older ones and shouldn't be directly compared as standards change. Again, without readily available fleet information with the only variable being oil viscosity used being available to us... then it becomes an argument no one have data to back up to prove anything one way or the other.

The idea that other oil viscosities however, depending on operating conditions and the environment are automatically improper just doesn't make sense. It isn't supported by all the information we have... or in how EU vehicles call for 30 weight oils. Our oil viscosity is shown as a recommendation... not a requirement. Across all parts, it's still on the end-user to use whatever parts he/she feels is best. Making the end-user be required to buy branded products specifically for the sake of warranty specifically is a violation of Magnuson-Moss... and that's something you won't see in your manual. Recommendations may be made... but requirements for use of branded products are outright illegal. Tie-in sales could otherwise be abused by charging sky-high prices for parts/services with the threat of warranty cancellation.

We have the same idea, you're absolutely right.

How many years in the Navy did you have? I retired from the Air Force after 26 years.

 

[charleswrivers]

We have the same idea, you're absolutely right.

How many years in the Navy did you have? I retired from the Air Force after 26 years.

16 and counting brother! Reenlisted out to 20 and we'll see where I go from there. I'm thinking I'm a 21-24 year guy. I'm leaning towards being out when my kids are hitting high school age.

I sure don't always like it... but I do love it and bet I will both miss it a lot when it's done... and be happy that's it's over when it is.

 

[fitter_here]

16 and counting brother! Reenlisted out to 20 and we'll see where I go from there. I'm thinking I'm a 21-24 year guy. I'm leaning towards being out when my kids are hitting high school age.

I sure don't always like it... but I do love it and bet I will both miss it a lot when it's done... and be happy that's it's over when it is.

You can remove a guy from the Navy/Air Force but you can't remove the Navy/Air Force from the guy...lol

 

[dallasjhawk]

esting on 0w-16 has been going on overseas for a couple decades... and I bet we'll see it eventually here for another tiny but measurable improvement in mpgs for a manufacturers fleet

The 2018 4 cyl Toyota Camry uses 0w-16 over here now, so its here and not going anywhere. Also, I highlighted a very specific portion that is pertinent to this discussion of oil, while they say 0w16/20, there is a very good caveat.

 

[charleswrivers]

The 2018 4 cyl Toyota Camry uses 0w-16 over here now, so its here and not going anywhere. Also, I highlighted a very specific portion that is pertinent to this discussion of oil, while they say 0w16/20, there is a very good caveat.

Sounds a lot like, "Not recommended for sustained high speed driving." for my old Z 30 years ago. So that seems like another telling statement for the suitability of low viscosity oils under high load/temperature environments.

By making an oil be the 'recommended oil' and making that the OEM fill... then I'd suspect when they're being testing for their EPA ratings to comply with CAFE... then the mpg benefits of the oil show dividends. Just like auto start/stop features which improve city MPGs. Or cylinder deactivation... which in Honda's case for VCM, has been the cause of TSBs on the Odysseys for ring/cylinder damage. Every little bit helps on the EPA loop... even if real world the benefits become more minimal for some of these technologies.

The 2% I've read about improvement that 0w-20 can provide over 5w-30... and another 2% I've read about 0w-16 provides over 0w-20...

https://noln.net/2017/06/30/skinny-ow-16-oil/

...it makes total sense that anything to improve mpg ratings and to prevent CAFE fines while maintaining reliability within the manufacturers warranty period will be done. CAFE non-compliance is a big deal for automakers... because it costs them money.

https://www.autonews.com/article/20160716/OEM11/307189981/industry-blindsided-as-cafe-fines-jump

...and I don't have an issue with lubricants that get tested by the manufacturer for certainly the warranty period... probably substantially more. We as the consumer have more options to use. For light load commuting, it makes sense to choose a product the provide the most economical operation. "High speeds, or under extreme load conditions" for a passenger car though? I wonder what constitutes this. It's a Camry. Probably not towing. Stop and go (lots of acceleration)? Dusty environments (contaminants larger than the film is going to score the bearings/rings/combustion chambers)? Highway speeds...? Interstate speeds? Beyond interstate speeds (how many people are racing their 4 cylinder Camrys?)? Since stop and go, dusty, towing, elevation changes has been the old standby for what to consider a car needing the severe maintenance schedule... then I'd expect any of them to push the 0w-20 over the 0w-16.

Thanks for sharing! It's a brave new world. I don't want to bring politics into a car discussion... but CAFE has really had a profound influence in automakers over the last few years... and I do think we as consumers have both benefitted and suffered from the technologies and strategies that have become widespread to meet their goals. I think things like low friction cylinder coatings, direct injection and lubricants that are way better today than they were a few decades ago are awesome, though we may eventually go one bridge too far in the chase for more MPGs. 0w-8 is on the horizon. Start/Stop... cylinder deactivation though? Not so much. CVTs may get there... I remember my cousins Subaru Justy when I was a kid... thinking it's ECVT was PFM. They're getting better and better... I just wish their inherent simplicity would be matched by ease of maintenance beyond fluid changes with parts (belts!) being available.

 

[dallasjhawk]

Sounds a lot like, "Not recommended for sustained high speed driving." for my old Z 30 years ago. So that seems like another telling statement for the suitability of low viscosity oils under high load/temperature environments.

By making an oil be the 'recommended oil' and making that the OEM fill... then I'd suspect when they're being testing for their EPA ratings to comply with CAFE... then the mpg benefits of the oil show dividends. Just like auto start/stop features which improve city MPGs. Or cylinder deactivation... which in Honda's case for VCM, has been the cause of TSBs on the Odysseys for ring/cylinder damage. Every little bit helps on the EPA loop... even if real world the benefits become more minimal for some of these technologies.

The 2% I've read about improvement that 0w-20 can provide over 5w-30... and another 2% I've read about 0w-16 provides over 0w-20...

https://noln.net/2017/06/30/skinny-ow-16-oil/

...it makes total sense that anything to improve mpg ratings and to prevent CAFE fines while maintaining reliability within the manufacturers warranty period will be done. CAFE non-compliance is a big deal for automakers... because it costs them money.

https://www.autonews.com/article/20160716/OEM11/307189981/industry-blindsided-as-cafe-fines-jump

...and I don't have an issue with lubricants that get tested by the manufacturer for certainly the warranty period... probably substantially more. We as the consumer have more options to use. For light load commuting, it makes sense to choose a product the provide the most economical operation. "High speeds, or under extreme load conditions" for a passenger car though? I wonder what constitutes this. It's a Camry. Probably not towing. Stop and go (lots of acceleration)? Dusty environments (contaminants larger than the film is going to score the bearings/rings/combustion chambers)? Highway speeds...? Interstate speeds? Beyond interstate speeds (how many people are racing their 4 cylinder Camrys?)? Since stop and go, dusty, towing, elevation changes has been the old standby for what to consider a car needing the severe maintenance schedule... then I'd expect any of them to push the 0w-20 over the 0w-16.

Thanks for sharing! It's a brave new world. I don't want to bring politics into a car discussion... but CAFE has really had a profound influence in automakers over the last few years... and I do think we as consumers have both benefitted and suffered from the technologies and strategies that have become widespread to meet their goals. I think things like low friction cylinder coatings, direct injection and lubricants that are way better today than they were a few decades ago are awesome, though we may eventually go one bridge too far in the chase for more MPGs. 0w-8 is on the horizon. Start/Stop... cylinder deactivation though? Not so much. CVTs may get there... I remember my cousins Subaru Justy when I was a kid... thinking it's ECVT was PFM. They're getting better and better... I just wish their inherent simplicity would be matched by ease of maintenance beyond fluid changes with parts (belts!) being available.

Exactly, if people think this "innovation" is anything other than to please the EPA and CAFE standards they are very wrong. Get you through the warranty, get good long term reviews from auto mags, and appease the EPA. We are actually luckily Honda still does performance in an affordable car like the Si, and even the lx hatch. Anyhow, 0-20 will be fine for 99% of buyers of the car. The 1% are people who mod and and have fun, mostly like people us who join forums and facebook pages to share in the fun. Not sure why the dude above was so adamant that we shouldn't deviate from the manufacturer. No one was forcing anything down people's throat, and we werent passing on heresy, its just common sense/knowledge if you have been wrenching on cars for any amount of time.

 

[charleswrivers]

Exactly, if people think this "innovation" is anything other than to please the EPA and CAFE standards they are very wrong. Get you through the warranty, get good long term reviews from auto mags, and appease the EPA. We are actually luckily Honda still does performance in an affordable car like the Si, and even the lx hatch. Anyhow, 0-20 will be fine for 99% of buyers of the car. The 1% are people who mod and and have fun, mostly like people us who join forums and facebook pages to share in the fun. Not sure why the dude above was so adamant that we shouldn't deviate from the manufacturer. No one was forcing anything down people's throat, and we werent passing on heresy, its just common sense/knowledge if you have been wrenching on cars for any amount of time.

Yep... and what are long term testers reviewed for these days...? 40,000 miles? I mean... the damn wheels are falling off by then!

I really have zero problem with folks wanting to use Honda parts, as that's their choice... but I just can't abide by the notion 3rd party parts are all harmful or inferior to OEM parts by virtue of them not being OEM. Not everything you get that's 3rd party is poorly made ebay trash... just like not everything that the OEM supplies with your car when it's sold off the lot is the best it could be. It is, however, that notion that service departments push and toe the legal line on... that non-OEM parts or non-branded service is somehow inferior that serves to benefit them and, IMO... many times are at the detriment of the consumer. A lot of old-timers I know who are into cars hated it as cars got modernized... but I love it. You don't have a to a car-whisperer... you can simply see what sensor data shows or what trouble code that data throws and easily track down problems. OBDII was part of the non-standardization... like how my old Z uses Nissan's Consult that drove it... and was in the spirit of Magnuson-Moss. It prevented car manufacturers from being the only ones to diagnose the ECUs on their own cars. Any shop... any autoparts store (for free!) or, these days, anyone with one of the ELM-whatever-the-3-numbers-are Bluetooth dongle and their phone with an app can diagnose issues on their own car. It's awesome that's it's never been easier to understand and care for your own car... but frustrating the manufactures have seemingly tried to push you out of your driveway... or from some local shop back to the dealer with both the lack of information and wording their owners manuals have. That's why when I read the statements of recommendations of use of their own fluids/filters and that maintenance items should be done back at their dealer... I simply find they have little weight.

...and with that, I'm so far off topic about "not worrying about oil brand"... I'm done.

Until the next oil thread which should be starting right about....

...now.

 

[pnoypride81]

Yup, I get my Mobil 1 for about $12 shipped 5qt jug

and where do u get this rebate??/ cheapest i paid for mobil1 is 22 when its on sale at walmart. otherwise its 25. id appreciate the link. thank you.

 

[xcoreflyup]

and where do u get this rebate??/ cheapest i paid for mobil1 is 22 when its on sale at walmart. otherwise its 25. id appreciate the link. thank you.

Google "mobil 1 promotions"

 

[SpinRush]

Excuse me, folks. I'm looking for the most expensive and best motor oil I can put in my Honda FK8. I want to pay top dollar all the time. What do you guys recommend?

 

[dc2turbo]

and where do u get this rebate??/ cheapest i paid for mobil1 is 22 when its on sale at walmart. otherwise its 25. id appreciate the link. thank you.

Amazon has them on sale from time to time.
www.slickdeals.net you can put an alert on that site to tell when it does go on sale

 

[dallasjhawk]

Yep... and what are long term testers reviewed for these days...? 40,000 miles? I mean... the damn wheels are falling off by then!

I really have zero problem with folks wanting to use Honda parts, as that's their choice... but I just can't abide by the notion 3rd party parts are all harmful or inferior to OEM parts by virtue of them not being OEM. Not everything you get that's 3rd party is poorly made ebay trash... just like not everything that the OEM supplies with your car when it's sold off the lot is the best it could be. It is, however, that notion that service departments push and toe the legal line on... that non-OEM parts or non-branded service is somehow inferior that serves to benefit them and, IMO... many times are at the detriment of the consumer. A lot of old-timers I know who are into cars hated it as cars got modernized... but I love it. You don't have a to a car-whisperer... you can simply see what sensor data shows or what trouble code that data throws and easily track down problems. OBDII was part of the non-standardization... like how my old Z uses Nissan's Consult that drove it... and was in the spirit of Magnuson-Moss. It prevented car manufacturers from being the only ones to diagnose the ECUs on their own cars. Any shop... any autoparts store (for free!) or, these days, anyone with one of the ELM-whatever-the-3-numbers-are Bluetooth dongle and their phone with an app can diagnose issues on their own car. It's awesome that's it's never been easier to understand and care for your own car... but frustrating the manufactures have seemingly tried to push you out of your driveway... or from some local shop back to the dealer with both the lack of information and wording their owners manuals have. That's why when I read the statements of recommendations of use of their own fluids/filters and that maintenance items should be done back at their dealer... I simply find they have little weight.

...and with that, I'm so far off topic about "not worrying about oil brand"... I'm done.

Until the next oil thread which should be starting right about....

...now.

Boom, straight from the 2016+ civic owners manual, suitable viscosity for the ambient temps shown......

 

[eagles13]

Boom, straight from the 2016+ civic owners manual, suitable viscosity for the ambient temps shown......

So if you live in a place where it doesn't really get cold 5W-30 and above is the way to go? Or am I just an idiot

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