Si vs Focus ST - Has anyone traded to or from?

[Poletrain]

Not sure where that guy got the 185hp number from, the Si actually gets closer to 200-205hp to the wheels.

I think I remember reading that article as well as some other forum posts so I was confused at that 185whp. But yeah, when you do a power to weight calculation, my Focus (on paper) at 230whp and 3250lbs is .0708, the si using 200whp and 2850lbs is .0702. Published 0-60 times are the same and 1/4 mile times are extremely similar as well

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[xbbnx]

I think I remember reading that article as well as some other forum posts so I was confused at that 185whp. But yeah, when you do a power to weight calculation, my Focus (on paper) at 230whp and 3250lbs is .0708, the si using 200whp and 2850lbs is .0702. Published 0-60 times are the same and 1/4 mile times are extremely similar as well

As you can see here the numbers are virtually identical but to be fair the Focus ST tested here did have on Pirelli P-Zero Nero All Seasons tire, but still. The second snap shot is the Si numbers, the 3rd is the Focus ST.

 

[Noize]

There is no way you should go from an Si to an ST. In addition to the above issues, they also have weird 4th gear problems.

But the larger reason is the depreciation hit, especially since they’re not going to have the Focus in the states anymore.

To the OP, the only thing you’re missing is a heartache.

 

[Poletrain]

I definitely agree the Si has better driving dynamics. I just don't understand if I'm missing something. They're only about $1000-$2000 used than an SI is new. What is so much better between the two? Perhaps it's the hatch that allows the higher pricing.

I appreciate the input guys! I'm still curious as to how the compare when they're full bolt-on and tuned.

I missed this post, it's a little bit difficult to compare the Focus pricing to the Civic because there are 3 different trim levels and the ST is also discontinued, so let's pretend it's 2017 again. The ST1 trim could be had or anywhere from $20-25k depending on the dealership, but was stickered at $25k. My brother in law actually got his 2018 ST1 for around $15k because they needed it gone. The ST1 is pretty much garbage, little 3.5" LCD screen, halogen lights, cloth seats, probably no dual zone climate control, wouldn't be surprised if no cruise control, I know in the base model regular focus only the front windows have an auto down function (even from the driver control) and no auto up, pretty much the pinnacle of a cheap car but put a nice motor in it. However, it's the lightest one and a great value because dealers knew nobody wanted one so you could get it for real cheap. The ST2 stickered at $29k added black out projector headlights with cornering lamps that activated after a certain wheel rotation as well as the projectors pivoting to match steering wheel direction, all 4 windows are auto down/up, partial leather Recaros (some hate these, I love them), cruise control, 7ish" touch screen with dual zone climate control, better sound system. The ST3 added some carbon fiber trim pieces and full leather Recaros and stickered for $31k.

To me, the price difference is likely because 2.0L vs 1.5L regardless of power, the ecoboost architecture is rather complex and ornate and even though Focus motors blow all the time, has quite a lot of safety features built in, and mostly 252hp/275tq, vs 205hp/tq (even though it's shown that the si puts down what is supposed to be the block power numbers). Bits like the cornering lamps, torque vectoring technology, marketing, and especially the Recaros I think is why the Focus is priced what it is new. The Focus was also debuted for the 2013 model year when the si was not a competitor yet unless you did a lot of research. You could compare them and it would come down to personal taste, but the Focus would beat a stock 9th gen si. That si is significantly underpowered vs the ST. The si has always been a ~25k car so even though the tenth gen far and away outperforms the previous generation, they wouldn't sell nearly as many if they priced it higher. So that's why the price differs new. In 2017, if I had known what I do now about the si about the equivalent power to weight, 0-60, and 1/4 mile, I don't think I would have bought the ST. The only reason I didn't even look at the si was because it said 205hp and I assumed that it would be 185 to the wheels following literally any other car sold on the market. Nobody publishes wheel horsepower numbers. So when you compare a 2017 si to a 2017 ST1, you have a decision to make. Comparing a 2017 ST2 to a si, are those Recaros and cornering lamps really worth $4k more? And forget it for a $31k ST3. Used, however, I don't know where you are seeing used STs selling for only a couple thousand less than a new si, because one thing the ST is known for is trash resale value. My 2017 ST2 with 40k miles that I bought for 27k out the door thanks to my dads employee discount and my Acura as a trade in, is worth only 15k AT BEST right now and probably more like $11-12k at trade in. Let's go worst case and a 2017 ST3 with 15k miles on it, even that wouldn't be any more than maybe $18k.

To be completely honest, my complaints about my Focus are based mostly in that I made a bad financial decision and I'm stuck with a high car payment for a car that's worth less than half its original value less than 3 years after I bought it. Buying that car used is the way to go, and now, the only way to go.

 

[Poletrain]

There is no way you should go from an Si to an ST. In addition to the above issues, they also have weird 4th gear problems.

But the larger reason is the depreciation hit, especially since they’re not going to have the Focus in the states anymore.

To the OP, the only thing you’re missing is a heartache.

You hit the nail on the head. I signed up for 6 years of $416/month of car payments. I still owe $16k on the car. I can't even sell it privately right now and close out my loan because it's worth at best $15k. My car and the debt is like an embarrassing tattoo you get when you're 18. You look at it later when you've grown up and you're like "why did I do that?" The quality isn't bad, it was just expensive and now you can't get rid of it and every time you look at it you just want it gone. I can't get rid of it, but I can cover it up at least. I can't get rid of this debt, but I can cover it up with a car that gives me less heartache and at least has better reliability and fuel economy with the same fun factor.

 

[SHAYN3R]

Not sure where that guy got the 185hp number from, the Si actually gets closer to 200-205hp to the wheels.

“That guy” got it from the Two Step Performance website. Possibly the most well-known off the shelf tune on this site. I was wrong, they dyno’d 182.

Regardless, I was trying to show what these cars are capable of with a simple tune. Different dynos with different cars equals different results. What can be noted is the gains from the baseline runs.

check this: https://twostepperformance.com/two-step-performance-tsp-stage-1-tune-for-2017-2019-honda-civic-si/

 

[xbbnx]

“That guy” got it from the Two Step Performance website. Possibly the most well-known off the shelf tune on this site. I was wrong, they dyno’d 182.

Regardless, I was trying to show what these cars are capable of with a simple tune. Different dynos with different cars equals different results. What can be noted is the gains from the baseline runs.

check this: https://twostepperformance.com/two-step-performance-tsp-stage-1-tune-for-2017-2019-honda-civic-si/

My guess is that Honda advertised the wheel horsepower as the crank horsepower. You're going to need way more than 182 wheel horsepower to keep up with the likes of the Focus ST and GTI as instrumented test results show that these vehicles are very close in performance, even with the Si's advertised low power output in comparison.

 

[Siiick]

Never driven the Focus ST but I do own it's little brother, the Fiesta ST, which is arguably (based on professional reviews) more fun to drive due to its smaller size. I do love having a 4-door hatch in the stable as they are very practical for a lot of different things. On paper, the cars are almost identical in terms of power and weight. As they currently sit, my ST would outhandle the Si but only because the Si is still running on the all season tires - the ST came with summer tires. But that will soon change as I have a new set of wheels and summer tires for the Si being delivered as I type this. I think the Si will be able to hold its own at that point. When it comes to features, its no contest - the Si spanks the ST in pretty much every category. The ST is a thrill to drive...and that's about it. The interior feels cheap and leaves a lot to be desired. You really do feel like you are driving a cheap econo car. Don't get me wrong though as that is not necessarily a bad thing. Zipping around in what would appear to be a rental car makes it extremely easy to fly low under the radar.

If you can own both, I'd say do it. Otherwise, stick with your Si.

 

[SHAYN3R]

My guess is that Honda advertised the wheel horsepower as the crank horsepower. You're going to need way more than 182 wheel horsepower to keep up with the likes of the Focus ST and GTI as instrumented test results show that these vehicles are very close in performance, even with the Si's advertised low power output in comparison.

It’s just one dyno. You could put a focus st on that dyno and it could read 200hp. Dynos are not definitive by any stretch of the imagination. They measure gains. The HP measurement is not always accurate. Again, I’m just showing the potential of the Si. Nowhere did I say that 182hp is definitive. It’s just what that car measured that day on that dyno.

Every dyno will measure different. The focus st and si are very close in performance. The si makes less power but weighs a few hundred pounds less equating to similar 1/4 mile times and 0-60 times.

 

[Civics4Ever]

Less weight, is great!

 

[Poletrain]

So I did my test drive on Saturday. I was already familiar with the civic in general because my wife drives 2018 LX. Immediate things I noticed were the heavily bolstered seats and the shifter. One thing that I've taken for granted in the Focus is the Recaros. Some hate them, but I love them, and the civic wasn't quite as heavily bolstered, but pretty close. Definitely the closest comparison on the market in that price range. That shifter though... oof. That shiter could sell that car all by itself. So notchy, no need for a short shifter, throw was already short, no slop anywhere. Power was great, torque was great, guy let me have some fun so I did a rolling 1-2 WOT pull. Some wheel hop, but not too bad. Definitely seems to need an RMM upgrade with a stiffer bushing. In the Focus world we call it the 1-2 bang where on a quick and hard shift from 1 to 2 the rear motor mount linkage bushing bottoms out and you get a metal to metal contact and I got that for sure on my shift into second. Didn't get to really test it much in corners and I wasn't able to test much with the suspension, but my lack of memory on it likely means that it wasn't overly stiff or too soft. The Focus is pretty stiff. Tire size is the same between the two. I really like the leather steering wheel, although it's likely only because mine is degraded over time and was likely very similar brand new. I was able to heel-toe. It's not easy in the Focus, pedal placement isn't ideal for it, brake pedal is too high. The civic was the same way, but I'm used to it so it wasn't a big deal. A negative for the civic was the rev hang. That was awful. My friend had a 9th gen si and complained about it and I never noticed it in my car and was wondering why he was complaining so much. I guess my car doesn't have it bad stock, but that rev hang made it pretty difficult to drive. Another negative was the clutch. It was too light in my opinion. It felt like a clutch you'd find in a standard civic. It needs to have a higher spring rate feel to give better feedback. Felt just kind of like a heavier gas pedal. Rather linear force input so engagement point was completely unknown.

At the end of the day, both are great cars. I personally prefer the civic more. It depends what you're looking for. If it's price point, a Focus ST can be found for as low as 10k, but always under 20k. Reliability and fuel economy go to the civic. Stock power is equivalent. Resale goes to the civic because I've been seeing used sis with like 25k miles still over $20k. Mod ceiling goes to the focus, higher displacement, if you're willing to go big turbo, you can get 350whp/350wtq all day on pump 93. Otherwise FBO gets you to 280whp/350wtq on pump 93 and gets you there for like, $1200-1500 with used parts or $3000 if you buy new. That turbo runs out o air pretty quickly, which is where the civic gets it's better power from. Probably similar size turbo, but smaller displacement so a much more favorable torque curve.

I love the car and I want it bad, but unfortunately the money doesn't work for me right now. They would give me $12k for it on trade in and private party it's worth only $15k still. I'm too upside down in the focus and it's prevented me from being able to save much. I just got married and we're tying to plan for buying a house. Even if the Focus loan were to disappear, I'd still need to put $7k down to get a monthly payment onf $350 for 72 months. However, I still don't trust the reliability of the Focus outside of warranty (which ends in 9k miles), I'm sick of paying $416/month on a car that's worth at best half of it's original value only 30 months into the loan term of 72 months, and I'm tired of the mpg. There is a Ford dealership near me that sent me a lette a few weeks ago about buying my car for 20% over fair value on trade in and they have a CPO Fiesta ST on the lot for $13.5k with 44k miles. I'm going to go look at that tonight and see what they'll do for me on trade in. They're asking to much for the Fiesta even CPO and they've had it for 6 months and it's on summer tires in the mountains of Northern NJ in the winter. I'd be looking to get them down to 11-12k and hope for 14k on my trade in and save at least $200/month. Drive that for a couple years, then when it makes financial sense, buy a facelifted si. Who knows, maybe 11th gen si will be available as a hatch and I'll get that in a heartbeat.

 

[Naruske]

You guys are confusing Non-si with si's. The sport hatch makes 182hp i believe and the si's are in the 205 range.

 

[SHAYN3R]

You guys are confusing Non-si with si's. The sport hatch makes 182hp i believe and the si's are in the 205 range.

No, I’m not. We’re talking wheel horsepower. That number was seen on Two Steps Performance dyno with a stock Si.

 

[Driveitlikeuboughtit]

St build quality sucks and the interior feels super cramped.

Si all the way.

 

[SavageOrange]

I owned a '16 ST w/ST3 package (when we had 1 kid). It was a FUN car. It seemed faster than my '20 Si, but the torque steer was noticeable when trying to have fun.

I do think the ST3 package is the only way I'd get the ST. Those Recaro's were sweet, and I liked having leather seats. The adaptive headlights were cool too. Once we had the second kid, we could barely fit 2 car seats in the back.

I should have just got an Si then, but I got a hell of a deal on the ST.

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