should i hold off on hondata fuel system

Fk8tjt

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hey guys I'm curious what everyone else thinks about the 3 grand fuel system. should I wait in Hope's of a different company selling the same thing for a much cheaper price or is 3 grand actually reasonable? thank u
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kefi

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XDI is developing a fuel pump compatible with Hondata. But I doubt anyone will have a complete kit like Hondata any time soon.

If you don't want to run ethanol and don't have a bigger turbo it isn't necessary. We're just touching the limits on pump gas with stock turbo, but it's sufficient.
 

Kcj1990

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XDI system will be superior then what’s available but dont expect it to be any cheaper, you have to pay to play
 

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Not worth a single dollar unless you are already on big turbo. Your turbo will struggle on E85 from what my tuner said; not worth the money to upgrade fueling like other play n play solution cars.

Other older platforms have PI options that can be integrated into piggyback or ecu itself for 1500-1700.
 

AdamD19DFK8

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Not worth a single dollar unless you are already on big turbo. Your turbo will struggle on E85 from what my tuner said; not worth the money to upgrade fueling like other play n play solution cars.

Other older platforms have PI options that can be integrated into piggyback or ecu itself for 1500-1700.
This is 100% false.

You use E45 for the stock turbo and with the fuel system it most certainly increases power and torque all throughout the powerband. You won't get over 400ft/lbs on the stock fuel system.

I just installed my flex fuel kit and ran e35 and e45 and I can tell a big difference from running pump gas and especially compared to the stock setup.

Full... Torque.... Everywhere
 


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Wait like me. Because I only need injectors and high pressure pump. And the fuel pump doesn't add much headroom anyway. E is mostly pointless because it takes way more fuel to provide same power. Unless you want to brag about torque numbers for some reason.
 

kefi

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Wait like me. Because I only need injectors and high pressure pump. And the fuel pump doesn't add much headroom anyway. E is mostly pointless because it takes way more fuel to provide same power. Unless you want to brag about torque numbers for some reason.
Ethanol greatly contributes to mid-upper range torque, which means it contributes to peak horsepower. I run the same air charge to redline with E30 on the stock fuel pump as I do with 93, but I can run another 7-10 degrees ignition the whole way there with boost really only being lowered around peak torque (3500-4500).

It's not really a ton more fuel either. I only need to add 7.5% more fuel to run E30 at 0% trims. I think too many people are basing their opinions on the basemaps, which are hilariously conservative and use more fuel than they need to.

With the fuel pump from Hondata adding 25% more flow, it definitely can bring a lot to the table with ethanol.
 

AdamD19DFK8

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Ethanol greatly contributes to mid-upper range torque, which means it contributes to peak horsepower. I run the same air charge to redline with E30 on the stock fuel pump as I do with 93, but I can run another 7-10 degrees ignition the whole way there with boost really only being lowered around peak torque (3500-4500).

It's not really a ton more fuel either. I only need to add 7.5% more fuel to run E30 at 0% trims. I think too many people are basing their opinions on the basemaps, which are hilariously conservative and use more fuel than they need to.

With the fuel pump from Hondata adding 25% more flow, it definitely can bring a lot to the table with ethanol.
Yeah man, i just tried the default aircharge tables so far, at the very top end, aircharge is still 190%. Have you tried increasing them?

With less boost you can run much more ignition timing on flex. At the top end this is a big deal because the stock turbo can only put out so much torque where adding more boost will just introduce more heat and be less efficient. Since ethanol runs cooler you can start the ignition spark much earlier for more potent combustion.

I'll put it this way, when you step on it at 4k and get that surge forward, that momentum feeling carries all the way to redline. You can see on dyno graphs how the hp plot increases very linearly. You can feel that.

That's where your $3k is going
 


Centripetal

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Wait like me. Because I only need injectors and high pressure pump. And the fuel pump doesn't add much headroom anyway. E is mostly pointless because it takes way more fuel to provide same power. Unless you want to brag about torque numbers for some reason.
Sorry, this post ended up being long. Skip to the bottom if you want the conclusion of whether to upgrade or not.

This is very true. Ethanol has less energy in it per gallon. In my opinion, to get the true benefits of the ethanol, the engine has to be designed for it and it has to be in the right environment. In the following graphs, are the power and efficiency of an engine with no modification to the ECU.
Honda Civic 10th gen should i hold off on hondata fuel system Screenshot from 2020-10-07 08-49-31

You'll note that at about 0.9 lambada, the engine makes the most power and as ethanol is added less power is made.

Since ethanol has less energy per gallon, you'll need to provide more fuel for the same energy. For example, E30 has 102630 BTU/gal whereas gasoline is 114000 BTU/gal, which mean you would need to increase flow-rate by about 10% to get the same energy/power.

Where ethanol really shines is its Octane Index (not AKI). Since ethanol in Direct Injection (DI) Engines has a higher resistance to knock at higher Intake Air Temperatures, one is able to increase boost, advance the ignition and/or increase compression, which increases efficiency. In the following graph, one should note the higher cylinder pressure of of the higher ethanol content fuels on a knock limited engine (they increase ignition advance until it knocks and measure).
Consequently, the gain in this experiment is 10% of peak pressure over race gasoline, which would equate to a 10% increase of torque. The area under the curve is an approximation of power—you'd have some factors like RPM to get real power, which also is greater with Ethanol.
Honda Civic 10th gen should i hold off on hondata fuel system Screenshot from 2020-10-07 10-30-26


Now this is where it gets interesting. At low IAT (35C), there is little benefit increasing ethanol from E20 to E40. However, there is significant pressure increase at the lower temperature as more air can fit into the cylinder and therefore more fuel.
Honda Civic 10th gen should i hold off on hondata fuel system Screenshot from 2020-10-07 10-49-42


In conclusion, if you live in an area that is cool most of the time (IAT below 35C), the use of Flex-Fuel will not provide as much gain over E10. With bolt ons in cooler climate, I get close to maxing out the fuel pump. I would only need more fuel with a bigger turbo in cold climates.
 

kefi

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Was that experiment using a turbocharger with an intercooler? The argument that ethanol doesn't have as much effect because of your ambient temperatures doesn't really fly with turbocharged applications that are spitting out significantly hotter air no matter what. Your IAT2 has very little to do with ignition, only boost.
 

Centripetal

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Was that experiment using a turbocharger with an intercooler? The argument that ethanol doesn't have as much effect because of your ambient temperatures doesn't really fly with turbocharged applications that are spitting out significantly hotter air no matter what. Your IAT2 has very little to do with ignition, only boost.
Where did I say ambient temperature? When its cool cold around here, my IAT (at manifold) is generally below 100F ~35C. Therefore, little benefit of ethanol.
The graphs I provided are IAT at manifold by the way.
I suggest you read the content before questioning the conclusion.

EDIT: Fun fact, when it cool cold around here, they actually take the Ethanol out of the gasoline because it makes engines run poorly when they are cold.
 
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kefi

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Where did I say ambient temperature? When its cool cold around here, my IAT (at manifold) is generally below 100F ~35C. Therefore, little benefit of ethanol.
The graphs I provided are IAT at manifold by the way.
I suggest you read the content before questioning the conclusion.

EDIT: Fun fact, when it cool cold around here, they actually take the Ethanol out of the gasoline because it makes engines run poorly when they are cold.
No need to 'make suggestions'. I read your full post and understand it. You said "In conclusion, if you live in an area that is cool most of the time (IAT below 35C), the use of Flex-Fuel will not provide as much gain over E10."

That is ambient temperature. Super low ambients don't really result in super low IAT1 once you're really getting on it for a little bit.
 

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No need to 'make suggestions'. I read your full post and understand it. You said "In conclusion, if you live in an area that is cool most of the time (IAT below 35C), the use of Flex-Fuel will not provide as much gain over E10."

That is ambient temperature. Super low ambients don't really result in super low IAT1 once you're really getting on it for a little bit.
Sorry, I'm being excessively terse as I just wrote a long post and need to get back to work. I mean no disrespect. You have help the community immensely.

I think you're missing the constraints I've put on the statement: "IAT below 35C". Then you're saying, well the temperatures are higher than that. I think that's where the interpretation brakes down?

The point is: Ethanol helps cool the camber, which has its benefits: "Since ethanol in Direct Injection (DI) Engines has a higher resistance to knock at higher Intake Air Temperatures, one is able to increase boost, advance the ignition and/or increase compression, which increases efficiency.". Now at lower IATs, there is no need to cool the chamber so the benefit is negligible because you can run higher ignition advance.

I see where you're coming from, though. Perhaps, I should have worded it like, "If your IATs during the application use stay below 35C, there are little benefits to flex-fuel.". Is that better?
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