Rumors swirl.... 2016 Civic Si 2.0T with about 230hp.

[Razer]

Im getting excited Now just give me that 2.0t, some LED headlights and taillights, sunroof, navigation and some sport cloth seats and I'm sold

This sounds great, and about where I expected, 220 would be to little and 250 too much to expect so 230 or so will make me very happy.

I think you are set for your wishes, except for the LED headlights. I do not expect those on the Si, but on the Type R to help make it more special. And it would add 1k to the cost I would think and I'm sure they are trying to keep the cost down even more with the 2.0 turbo in there.

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[Regi_Derrick]

This sounds great, and about where I expected, 220 would be to little and 250 too much to expect so 230 or so will make me very happy.

I think you are set for your wishes, except for the LED headlights. I do not expect those on the Si, but on the Type R to help make it more special. And it would add 1k to the cost I would think and I'm sure they are trying to keep the cost down even more with the 2.0 turbo in there.

It would not add 1K to the cost of the Civic SI, LED headlights are readily available on multiple Honda modes now (Accord, Pilot, CIvic Touring and probably the CR-V next year when it gets redone) and other brands as well, the cost of the technology has gone down considerably. Pricey VW charges an MSRP of $1295 for its LED Lighting pkg on Passats...and it consists of LED headlights, LED DRLS, and LED taillights. It is a safe bet that the Civic SI will have LED DRLs and Taillights (since even the Civic LX does now) at best from a MSRP standpoint they might be $500 more if Honda did individual options (which we know they won't)

Also, considering the VAST and abundant amount of new equipment the new standard Civic trim levels have received while keeping the price increases modest (or in the case of the Civic EX, actually going DOWN in price) I don't see how Honda can't figure out a way to do the same with the new SI. At best I'd expect the base price of the SI to increase somewhere between $500-$1500. I think the biggest price increase of the new Civic trim levels was for the Civic EX-L, which gained a tone of new equipment over the previous generation. That puts the MSRP for a Civic SI right around $25,090-26,590...basically around the same price as the Civic Touring ($26,500), which, coincidently has, LED headlights.

Instead of all the fancy leather seats, power seats, heated rear seats, Adaptive Cruise Control, Honda Sensing, etc. etc. You'd get an SI with the 2.0t, sport cloth seats (maybe with leatherette trim) , fancy 400 watt stereo, Navigation and LED headlights.

That being said, "fancy" headlights should not be reserved solely for the Type-R. Every major competitor to the SI offers HIDs...Golf GTI, Focus ST, WRX, Lancer, etc. etc. Honda should not skimp on feature content for a model that will without question outsell the Type R, just to make the Type-R feel exclusive. The engine, the bodystyle (hatchback) and performance specs should be more than enough. VW and Ford don't purposely under equipped the GTi and ST to save face for the Golf R and Focus RS. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if in some ways the SI has nicer equipment (like a sunroof)

Skimping on content is the same bullshit that kept Hondas under equipped for generations because of Honda's inability to make Acura "Luxurious" Look how long it took the Accord to finally get push button start when every major competitor offered the technology a generation before they did.

The Civic Coupe Concept from earlier this year had them, and folks assumed back then that Honda wouldn't offer them at all, once the spy shots of the Touring Civics came out folks changed their tunes.

I'm willing to bet the SI will have them. Can you imagine people going into dealerships wanting an SI then realizing the Civic Touring offers them and the SI doesn't? I, for one, would be pissed. But we shall see soon enough.

Hopefully the Si does get the 2.0t..... However I still think the 1.5T can hit the power goals of 230hp and maintain reliability.... But the 2.0t might actually be the easier option if 230hp is the number. We will see.

As far as a Honda DCT in the Si.... Doubt it. Maybe in 3 years or more lol. Id be surprised if they offered that in the Si.

Well considering that Honda 'under rates' everything...from the 2.4L in the Accords to the 1.5t used in the new Civics. I think Honda wants the perception to be that their 2.0t with "just" 230hp outruns (by a significant margin) the Focus ST that makes uses similar engine displacement and makes 40 more hp. So a 1.5t rated at 230hp would probably be "just 230 hp" but a 2.0t rated at "just 230hp" probably feels more like 260 or so and pulls like it too. This has been VW's strategy with the Golf GTI for a few years now.

I, honestly, don't have an issue with the SI or Type R being offered with DCTs or even CVTs, as long as a proper manual SI is available. I have no interest whatsoever in the Type R, it's just not my kind of car.

 

[Design]

Honda has been quoted repeatedly, like Ford, in saying that performance automatics deter from the "pure" driving experience. Their philosophy has been to keep it simple, raw and engaging. VW has always prioritized refinement over performance. Components throughout are more complex, more interconnected, and tighter fitting. DCT is great when it works, a nightmare when it doesn't. And judging by the feedback of Acura owners, I suspect Honda has concerns about the long term reliability of DCT in economy-based platforms.

That said, I do think there's a place for the DCT. Just not without cannibalizing the ILX in it's current form. I predict they'll release the 6MT, wait, then consider pairing the DCT in higher volume with the next gen ILX.

My 2 cents..


Edit: thread for reference:
http://acurazine.com/forums/problems-fixes-427/2016-ilx-8spd-dct-transmission-issues-927427/

 

[SK910]

What is this talk of "purity"?? Want "purity"??? Take the engine out of the car, put big holes in the floor for you to use your feet and yabba dabba doo that sh1t.
A car is a machine. Arguing what type of machine it is in relation to it's "purity" is ridiculous. If it makes someone happy, it is pure to them.

And BTW I highly doubt Honda would kill the 6MT anytime soon. Do you guys realize that Honda is a holdout?? They offer the 6MT in a Civic, an Accord Sport and an Accord V6 coupe for crying out loud! (Maybe even a 4cyl coupe?? I dunno) That is awesome of Honda. They are THE only mainstream manufacturer to do this. Don't even mention Mazda with their pittance of car sales. Honda is big, and you can still get a MT on several of their mainstream products.

Honestly, Honda may be one of the last ones standing with mainstream MT selections in a few years. VW may give them a run for their money.

Speaking of MT's, DCT's and VW...being at a VW dealer was an amazing experience. On a Friday, when I test drove the GTI, there were dozens of GTI's on the lot...2 doors, 4 doors, 6MT, DCT's...holy crap man it dawned on me WTH is Honda pissing about for?? VW sells plenty of 2 door and 4 door hot hatches! There were plenty of people buying GTI's that Friday night and Saturday that I picked up my car. In the internet sales office, there were 3 of us finalizing deals on GTI's. The other 2 were 6MT's. SO don't fret about MT and DCT....over at VW they coexist quite well, and from what I can see there is a pretty even split for both cars in sales. A DCT Si won't signal "the end" of any damn misconceived notion of "purity". It is about choices. The CVT on the other hand, we may all agree that it is just an appliance of sheeple.

+1

New poster here but long time lurker.

This talk of purity makes it seem like cars should be flintstones style and I love myself a nice manual gearbox!

What matters is execution and Honda knows how to do great manual and now they've proven they can do a great DCT with that 8-speed in the TLX 4-cyl. and the ILX. As long as it isn't a CVT it's all good even though the option unit in the WRX is apparently pretty decent. Plus to be able to compete they need a DCT option. Ford's Focus ST and Fiesta ST sold well in their first year but have since become salesproof because it's manual only. Sure it may give you good deals but that also lowers their survival chance in today's auto market.

It's fine for cars like the Civic Type R, Focus RS, and WRX STI to be manual only since they're halo models that aren't going to sell in large numbers. Even then with the Golf R offering both MT and DCT, that argument is also losing credibility.

Anyway, with the GTI being the main competitor, the Si needs to offer both. It's about time Honda broadens the Si's appeal now that the Type R is coming.

 

[firsthonda]

I don't care put a 9 regular auto or six gear auto from accord just give us more power and non cvt option with paddle shifter. Hell make a super cvt Si that totally makes the world forget how some other CVTs behave or sound.

 

[HondaGeek]

+1

New poster here but long time lurker.

This talk of purity makes it seem like cars should be flintstones style and I love myself a nice manual gearbox!

What matters is execution and Honda knows how to do great manual and now they've proven they can do a great DCT with that 8-speed in the TLX 4-cyl. and the ILX. As long as it isn't a CVT it's all good even though the option unit in the WRX is apparently pretty decent. Plus to be able to compete they need a DCT option. Ford's Focus ST and Fiesta ST sold well in their first year but have since become salesproof because it's manual only. Sure it may give you good deals but that also lowers their survival chance in today's auto market.

It's fine for cars like the Civic Type R, Focus RS, and WRX STI to be manual only since they're halo models that aren't going to sell in large numbers. Even then with the Golf R offering both MT and DCT, that argument is also losing credibility.

Anyway, with the GTI being the main competitor, the Si needs to offer both. It's about time Honda broadens the Si's appeal now that the Type R is coming.

And the end of the day, almost everything said here is that of an opinion. Yet given the fact that not only have I sold Acura and currently Honda, in addition to actually have given a production presentation to some high ranking people from corporate HQ, I can tell you that the Si has never been about competing with other manufacturers and models. That's reserved for the mainstream Civic, Accord, CRV, etc.

Think about it. Since 1995, Honda has had a four cylinder that basically made the same power as the current gen Si, albeit with less torque. If they really wanted it to be the best car in its class/price point, they could have made it be a long time ago. In fact, the Si is the only Honda model that really doesn't receive any substantial comparison training at the dealership, while models like the Accord get individual trainings against the top models in its class.

The Si does not have to have a DCT option. Can it have one? Yes. Should it have one? Maybe. Does it need it? Absolutely not. At most, the Si represents maybe 2% of Hondas sold, but based on regional sales, it probably closer to 1%. The fact that Honda still offers it is a great thing. Even more amazing that they are actually bringing the Type R.

Having worked for other brands, I can tell you that Honda is run completely different than any other company, for better or for worse, depending on your own opinion.

Yes, the majority of enthusiasts, or purists as they are also referred as, would say the Si should have a manual only. Not all, but the greater majority, without question. The average consumer couldn't care less. But the enthusiast? Absolutely so.

When the new Si is finally revealed, and then only comes with the 6 speed manual, only a small few will lose sleep over it. The majority of Honda fans, how are use to seeing a pure manual, with a clutch pedal and all, will just expect it to be this way, because it's an Si. A Honda Civic Si.

With all this being said, for the Honda loyalists out there who really want an Si, yet for some reason a real manual is not option, it would be nice if Honda did give you a DCT.

 

[SK910]

Im voting with my wallet regardless of what it has. But all I'm saying is it's time Honda offers some choice in the Si. Now that I see that I'm in away talking to a brick wall, I think I'll just wait until one of the PR folks sends me the embargoed info at work before whatever auto show they're revealing it at.

 

[takemorepills]

There was another long running Si...the Prelude. And it had an automatic in all years of Si...across 3 generations, and even 4 if you count the gen 5 non-Si.

Now that the Prelude has been dead a while, and Honda has decided to get back to doing what they do best, maybe they will see fit to equip the new Si with some sort of auto, sort of like the Civic Si becoming a "halo" Honda like the Prelude used to be. It is not a long stretch to think of the Si as a spirit of the Prelude...it will be the first sport oriented Honda with a turbo...along with all the other huge improvements the CivicX brings.

Another reason, the 2.0T in Si configuration will likely be a Si thing for a year or two until it ends up in some Acura. Until then, may as well offer an automatic option to spread the 2.0T costs out to a much broader customer base....

I'm just saying....not predicting or acting like I know what Honda is up to.......

 

[Design]

See my previous point. No reason to rush the DCT to market in a limited production trim.

Now... if and when the ILX or an equivalent higher end trim makes its debut with a similar motor and chassis; we might see Honda extend the DCT offering to the economy class. But that's a stretch IMHO.

 

[takemorepills]

we might see Honda extend the DCT offering to the economy class. But that's a stretch IMHO.

Just looked at a bunch of new DSG GTI's for $25K. I'd say $25K is pretty darn close to what a turbo Si will cost, and somehow at least one other manufacturer can make it happen.

 

[Design]

True, but VW's mix is entirely different. In the US, half their sales of the Golf is from the GTI. Honda sells roughly 5K/yr on the Si (est) - a small fraction of the quarter million USDM Civics produced. And far less than the 1-1.7K GTIs sold per month.

 

[takemorepills]

True, but VW's mix is entirely different. In the US, half their sales of the Golf is from the GTI. Honda sells roughly 5K/yr on the Si (est) - a small fraction of the quarter million USDM Civics produced. And far less than the 1-1.7K GTIs sold per month.

Goes to show there's a lot of room to expand Si sales.
I'd buy an Si over a GTI any day. The people buying GTI's the same time as me were all trading in different cars.

Turbo Si, Honda value and reliability and a form of automatic....that's a recipe for success. You'd see a lot of conquest sales and people who'd otherwise get a EX-T buying a Si.

If Honda wants to improve their sporty image, give the masses a sporty car that they don't need to make sacrifices for. Put more sport in the driveways of more people

 

[HondaGeek]

If you guys really want a DCT Si, perhaps you need to show Honda that there's a real demand with enthusiasts, Honda fans, etc, for one. I know in the past 10 years I signed two separate petitions for the Civic Type R, the largest one being on Change.org

A handful of people here are not going to influence Honda to offer something in the Si that not only never was, but at the dealership level no one ever requests. In the past two years, only one customer said they wished the Si came in a manual, even though, in all truth, they didn't come in looking for an Si in the first place.

Pretty much everyone person who comes in looking for an Si has had one in the past, and expects ir with a manual.

Honda needs to see real demand (in the thousands) for this DCT option. Maybe someone on this thread would like to get the ball rolling and start a petition?

 

[firsthonda]

If you guys really want a DCT Si, perhaps you need to show Honda that there's a real demand with enthusiasts, Honda fans, etc, for one. I know in the past 10 years I signed two separate petitions for the Civic Type R, the largest one being on Change.org

A handful of people here are not going to influence Honda to offer something in the Si that not only never was, but at the dealership level no one ever requests. In the past two years, only one customer said they wished the Si came in a manual, even though, in all truth, they didn't come in looking for an Si in the first place.

Pretty much everyone person who comes in looking for an Si has had one in the past, and expects ir with a manual.

Honda needs to see real demand (in the thousands) for this DCT option. Maybe someone on this thread would like to get the ball rolling and start a petition?

Yea but don't you think if they are trying to be viewed as a more sporty brand they would want to offer an auto non cvt? I mean camaro mustang sell tons of automatics. With the type r that should be the manual only choice this time. Why have two super sporty cars for manual only lovers?

 

[HondaGeek]

Yea but don't you think if they are trying to be viewed as a more sporty brand they would want to offer an auto non cvt? I mean camaro mustang sell tons of automatics. With the type r that should be the manual only choice this time. Why have two super sporty cars for manual only lovers?

Because you don't need a high volume seller to be viewed as a sporty company. As long as the model exists and people now about it through marketing, its not enough to drive interest and bring people into the showroom. This is exactly what Audi did with the R8. After its release, Audi's image changed for the better, especially when they aired the R8 Super Bowl commercial. People who normally only saw German luxury as BMW and Mercedes (both who outsell Audi by the ton) all of sudden gave them a second look. The low selling R8 brought in new Audi customers, just like the low selling NSX brought in new customers for Acura during the 90s.

And as far the Mustang and Camaro, that's a different beast all together. They are both American muscle cars with a lot of history. If you combine Civic Si sales for the last 10 years, you will not even match what either sold last year alone.

Honda wants to be viewed as a sporty brand again, but not by using one car. No. They are doing it by infusing this DNA throughout the whole model lineup. The new Pilot has, unofficially, the MDX's SH-AWD, the HRV has Acura's amplitude reactive dampers and Michelin tires, the Fit, with its Gas tank under the front seat, has a very low center of gravity, etc, etc. Its not about one car. Its about all of them.

The Type R is a hardcore vehicle, yes, but the Si is not a super-sporty car. Its just sporty enough, while maintaining great reliability and easy enough to live with every day, with the best manual on the market. And if it did have an available DCT, it would still never come close to the sales of the Mustang and Camaro.

Yet it doesn't have to. As long as Honda keeps offering an Si for under $25k, it will sell in its usual numbers and those who buy them will be more than satisfied.

A petition is really the best way to get the DCT. Honda needs to know there is demand for it.

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