Rough idle 2016 Touring

gtman

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It would be interesting to know whether the service manual ever had any revisions regarding the idle speed.

I'm slightly unsettled by the service saying it's normal, while it's out of the specified range. Unless they are saying "it will go out of spec as the engine gets older and nothing can be done about it."

Which doesn't mean they are not right. As the piston rings etc. get slightly worn, the engine internal friction decreases and the reduced idle load might cause the ECU to allow the rpm to drop, until a slight external load or a tuning fix compensates for it.
At least in my case, the low idle once warm happened since day 1. I'd have a smooth idle at all the stoplights going to work until my last one exiting the highway, 10 miles into the drive. I'd be stopped and would see my passenger seat vibrating. And rpms would hover around 600. The reason I never took it to the dealer was the many members here saying their CVT turbos experienced the same scenario. And the dealer's they went to saying were all saying "normal".

I know you are saying that idle speed is out of spec according to the Honda service manual. A couple points/questions...

1. Was the service manual for 2016 and 2017 models?

2. You mentioned that those idle numbers were in neutral.
It specifies the idle speed in neutral as:

670 to 770 rpm for 1.5T
I've noticed that the warm low idle and shaking would lessen/stop when doing two things. Turning on the climate control or putting the transmission in park or neutral. Maybe those high neutral numbers in the service manual are lowered when the transmission is actually engaged?

Here's the other interesting comparison. Right now I run a TSP Stage 1 tune. My car idles very smoothly because Derek has warm idle set at around 700-730. When I've had my car back to stock from time to time, that shaky, rough warm idle hovering a bit above 600 rpm comes back.

Last but not least. All the folks complaining about the low idle seem to own CVTs not manuals. And here's my theory which may be totally wrong... :cool:

Idle is higher in neutral than when in gear. And obviously manual trans. owners are putting their cars in neutral at stoplights. The CVT drivers of course are leaving it in gear where it seems to idle slower. Again it seems like this issue only happens on the earlier model years. I never hear about it on 2019's or 2020's which suggests Honda changed something. Maybe that something was the factory dilution "fix".





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Gruber

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At least in my case, the low idle once warm happened since day 1. I'd have a smooth idle at all the stoplights going to work until my last one exiting the highway, 10 miles into the drive. I'd be stopped and would see my passenger seat vibrating. And rpms would hover around 600. The reason I never took it to the dealer was the many members here saying their CVT turbos experienced the same scenario. And the dealer's they went to saying were all saying "normal".

I know you are saying that idle speed is out of spec according to the Honda service manual. A couple points/questions...

1. Was the service manual for 2016 and 2017 models?

2. You mentioned that those idle numbers were in neutral.


I've noticed that the warm low idle and shaking would lessen/stop when doing two things. Turning on the climate control or putting the transmission in park or neutral. Maybe those high neutral numbers in the service manual are lowered when the transmission is actually engaged?

Here's the other interesting comparison. Right now I run a TSP Stage 1 tune. My car idles very smoothly because Derek has warm idle set at around 700-730. When I've had my car back to stock from time to time, that shaky, rough warm idle hovering a bit above 600 rpm comes back.

Last but not least. All the folks complaining about the low idle seem to own CVTs not manuals. And here's my theory which may be totally wrong... :cool:

Idle is higher in neutral than when in gear. And obviously manual trans. owners are putting their cars in neutral at stoplights. The CVT drivers of course are leaving it in gear where it seems to idle slower. Again it seems like this issue only happens on the earlier model years. I never hear about it on 2019's or 2020's which suggests Honda changed something. Maybe that something was the factory dilution "fix".
The service manual where I found the idle speed specifications is the one we all have available here on the forum. I thought it was as of MY2019, but someone may know better.
Yes, the idle speeds are specified in neutral, and I assume with the brake pedal or clutch free. So I guess for the CVT the idle speed in Drive is not specified, and therefore, whatever it is, Honda service can say it's normal.....

Shifting any automatic to neutral, which reduces the load, will usually increase the idle rpm, as the guy below says. It's not quite clear to me why this has an opposite effect to turning on the AC (more load - higher rpm), but this may depend on the ECU-transmission programming.

I never had any oil dilution fix done, and I never had any shaking when idling or the idle rpm anywhere close to 600. It seems like no matter what I turn on or off, the rpm after a short blip always returns to about 720. So far. So maybe they changed something.:dunno:

 
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Certainly not normal. Check Engine light has never come on?

Have you ever tried to disconnect the battery for 5 minutes to reset the engine computer?
NO ENGINE LIGHT.. I have disconnected battery a few times since it started and didn't help
 
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Definitely it is normal. Try idling your car when oil temp is normal you’ll get around 600 rpm and car shakes too without ac running. Not sure what your concerned about all cars do this.
because it feels ridiculous.. even my 12 year old daughter asked why is your car shaking like this.. didn't do this for first 20,000 miles I owned the car, if it did I wouldn't have bought it..
 
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No, definitely not normal.
600 rpm is significantly below specification. But if the dealer service and some engineer said there is is nothing they can do, it's hard to argue. One thing that needs to be verified is whether it does it all the time every time, even after reconnecting the battery.
I would switch to a heavier oil if you're still using 0W20.
Yes I agree, didn't do this first 20,000 miles.. yes it is like this all the time, and battery has been disconnected a few times since this started. runs very smooth if ac or defrost is turned on.
what oil would you suggest?
 

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Yes I agree, didn't do this first 20,000 miles.. yes it is like this all the time, and battery has been disconnected a few times since this started. runs very smooth if ac or defrost is turned on.
what oil would you suggest?
Ask dealer to check fuel injectors and spark plugs and ignition coil. May be something is not right the car shouldn't shake in idle
 

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I had some issues with rough idling and weird rpm fluctuations when driving, I ran a can of throttle body cleaner through it and also got some MAF sensor cleaner and cleaned that. I could tell the major difference after doing this. I ran a Ktuner base map for like 2 years straight going between stage 1 and 2....A lot of carbon build up
 

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That's what I was trying to explain in earlier posts. My '17 Civic turbo sedan had factory idle set to 630 once warmed up. I have access to the factory idle table via KTuner and can see this.

I'd bet money you now Idle at around 700+ rpm after the oil dilution idle relearn and that's why the shakes are gone.
 
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In my experience 4 banger econo boxes are always full of rattles shakes and vibrations.

FWIW, my 2016 2.0 idles between 600-700 and vibrates/shakes just like every other econo box I've owned over the years.

I think OP just didn't notice before because of new car excitement.

It's an econo box, they're supposed to shake n rattle they're cheap barely legal cars.

Gruber just likes to argue and uses strawman tactics to leverage his position lol.
 

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In my experience 4 banger econo boxes are always full of rattles shakes and vibrations.

FWIW, my 2016 2.0 idles between 600-700 and vibrates/shakes just like every other econo box I've owned over the years.

I think OP just didn't notice before because of new car excitement.

It's an econo box, they're supposed to shake n rattle they're cheap barely legal cars
Gruber just likes to argue and uses strawman tactics to leverage his position lol.
I readily admit there is no point in arguing with people like you who in every post complain "I drive an econo box again" and "how I hate the auto industry." You punished yourself with your econo box. If you hate econo boxes and you know all too well "they are supposed to shake n rattle," because you have had so many of them before, why do you keep buying them?:dunno:

What makes you think it's even possible to build a car that would not shake and rattle and would be fully legal for so little money, if you have never seen one like that?:rofl:
 

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I readily admit there is no point in arguing with people like you who in every post complain "I drive an econo box again" and "how I hate the auto industry." You punished yourself with your econo box. If you hate econo boxes and you know all too well "they are supposed to shake n rattle," because you have had so many of them before, why do you keep buying them?:dunno:

What makes you think it's even possible to build a car that would not shake and rattle and would be fully legal for so little money, if you have never seen one like that?:rofl:
My only complaint about my econo box is the quality is lower than the car's 30 year reputation. Its definitely annoying to prematurely replace components that have been manufactured and in cars for well over 50 years.

What is wrong with hating bad industry? I hate a lot of industry, have you ever looked into how much printer ink cartridges cost to manufacture vs how much they sell for? You're crazy not to hate bad industry.
I keep buying them because they cost next to nothing to buy, run and maintain.

There's no point in arguing with "people like me" because we call you out on your strawman tactics and then you thrash and flail about angrily.

Rest of my "car money" goes into my 408 stroker truck. I like older vehicles not new ones.

Your last paragraph I honestly don't even know what you're trying to say. I'm ok with my 4 bager cars being noisy and rattly. I pay next to nothing for them and fix everything myself. I just get irritated at replacing things prematurely or things that really shouldn't be breaking.
 

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My only complaint about my econo box is the quality is lower than the car's 30 year reputation. Its definitely annoying to prematurely replace components that have been manufactured and in cars for well over 50 years.
Try to support your general complaints. Which specific high-reputation econo box car available 30 years ago is on your mind? I'll then remind you what was the price at the time in today's dollars, and what you got for that money. But generally, there is no reason to think that since the car is called for example Honda Civic, Nissan Altima, or Ford Bronco, it will be the same as the car with same name was 30 years ago.

Which specific parts you need to replace that were allegedly in cars for 50 years? Maybe I will be able to tell you why these parts are not exactly the same and why they may be less reliable today. Maybe it will turn out it's not all the auto industry's fault?
 

16LXMT

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Try to support your general complaints. Which specific high-reputation econo box car available 30 years ago is on your mind? I'll then remind you what was the price at the time in today's dollars, and what you got for that money. But generally, there is no reason to think that since the car is called for example Honda Civic, Nissan Altima, or Ford Bronco, it will be the same as the car with same name was 30 years ago.

Which specific parts you need to replace that were allegedly in cars for 50 years? Maybe I will be able to tell you why these parts are not exactly the same and why they may be less reliable today. Maybe it will turn out it's not all the auto industry's fault?
Not sure which complaint of mine you're referring to, I've mostly made valid points and unfortunate observations. However to answer your first question and keep the list short to just one or two civic specific examples, door actuators have been used as far back as the 50s, and automotive batteries. You thinking every car is so different makes it clear as day that you don't even do your own oil changes. My expereince has taught me aside from some dimensions and styling, most of these cars are just about identical. Many of them even share components from the same 3rd party, 3rd world vendor. The differences of note occur when the materials and price start to expontentially climb. If I was doing a repair on a civic/mazda 3/corolla I am fairly confident the prodecures are about identical, just the dimensions of the parts will change. Not their function.

You're right in saying it's not ALL the industries fault, we the consumers are just as much to blame because we continually and repeatedly buy up the same poor quality over hyped crap. When it breaks we buy the newer more expensive one. It's our fault too.
 

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