Reliability of fbo and a tune

[sLing]

Modern engines are amazingly good at protecting themselves

That goes out the window when you start modifying the car.

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[Boostd4]

That goes out the window when you start modifying the car.

Well, I wouldn't say completely out the window. Depends on how deep down the rabbit hole you go. An FBO car with conservative tuning on a stock turbo setup should be just as reliable as a factory car IMO. When you start going big turbo and Ethanol fuel...then you're really rolling the dice.

 

[Byron Sexton]

I don't trust this platform to be honest.....

15 years ago maybe. Those motors were bulletproof. Honda quality has fallen off

 

[fk8mike]

i have few clients on oem engine,Fsu,500+whp/450+/400+and those cars/engines are strong we have to catch that each car/drivers is different and really know read/understand the datalog to make the right adjustment

 

[Fk8_Borwax]

Update to those curious: I’ve been tuned on pherable stage 2 and I’m basically fbo for 5k miles now and have had zero issues knock on wood the car is a different beast now night and day difference

 

[TheGreekFreak]

I've heard of the mythical "reliable conservative tune" across a bunch of platforms......I honestly think it's bullshit. All evidence for or against is anectodal but failures occur with every platform for different reasons and I rarely see high mileage tuned cars after time.

If you're the guy with 150K miles on your stage 4 since new car and have had zero reliability issues for 10+ years while blowing the doors off every mustang bro in town, congratulations......you're a unicorn.

But if you're in the majority asking these questions, which usually revolve around concerns of taking a financial hit to replace an engine you can't afford out of pocket, leave the car alone imo.

As I get older, it makes more and more sense to just buy the performance you want from a factory car versus puffing up your daily driver with car roids and risking an endless pit of headaches, both in time and money. My R isn't even my daily and I still wouldn't want to deal with that shit......

 

[civicsi1211]

YOLO
Get the hondata
Or option B
Sell your car and just get a normal civic

If your not swapping turbo’s, changing the fuel, and super tuning your car your don’t have much to worry about unless your just super super super unlucky.
Anything is possible but a regular flash isn’t much to sweat over.

 

[jhokie]

The answer is pretty simple. If you get a good/reputable tune and don't lug the engine, you'll PROBABLY be fine.

But there's always a chance so make sure that having to pay ~$11,000 or whatever for an engine and install wouldn't ruin your life. Even if you have hypothetically $75,000 in a retirement account you could withdrawal with penalty and at least salvage the car.

And for the love of God if you're underwater on your car loan and don't have the spare cash sitting around, then don't do it. If you got the cash in reserve, life is too short so go for it!

 

[Doc_Mello]

So, I’d like to respectfully push back here…

I've heard of the mythical "reliable conservative tune" across a bunch of platforms......I honestly think it's bullshit. All evidence for or against is anectodal but failures occur with every platform for different reasons and I rarely see high mileage tuned cars after time.

I can understand this sentiment, for the most part. I think GTman’s Tune Thread has become a fantastic collation of enumerated experiences, and thus provides a quantitative assessment of reliability in context. I wonder, at least for our cars, if the paucity of tuned high-mileage cars might be due to more logical explanations before resorting to a high tuned-failure rate, such as that our cars are still somewhat new, with a small overall percentage being tuned, and/or that many tuned cars are de-tuned before sale, thus biasing the extrapolation.

But if you're in the majority asking these questions, which usually revolve around concerns of taking a financial hit to replace an engine you can't afford out of pocket, leave the car alone imo.

This sentiment seems similar to what others have said above, and, again, this is the most prudent scenario, for sure, but I also suspect it is unrealistic for the majority of us on here. Let’s be honest: how many folks tuning their Civics, across all trims, have a ‘$10K Savings Just In Case I Blow My Engine’ account? I might guess few, at best. I certainly don’t. But I’m not sure we need such a massive ‘Just In Case’ acct to mod our cars. This isn’t to say that, when deciding to embark on this journey, we should just throw caution to the wind, and dump paychecks on track-designed parts (and all the complications that come with); of course not. I do think, for sure, though, that, if we decide to start modding, we should have a realistic back-up plan, a sense of ‘if something goes wrong with the related part & install, how will I be able to cover the fix?’ For example, someone of lower-SES, such as a college student, deciding to put an intake on their car, should also consider the ramifications of that decision, such as where to store the OEM parts just in case the intake is somehow defective, and needs to be returned. In this scenario, the probability of the intake catastrophically damaging in the engine is so low, that an ‘Oh, Sht!’ savings acct seems unnecessary. Now, in the context of tuning, which seems, historically, across platforms, more risky, indeed, much more consideration is warranted, but the level of recompense should be proportional to the risk. For example, using the same lower-SES college student scenario: if this person wants to tune their engine, a great deal of thought needs to go into tune risks. It would be wholly unwise to go God Mode. However, with enough research into safe tunes, like Ktuner’s OTS tunes, as determined by both GTman’s Tune Thread + peoples’ experiences on here, I am of the mindset that this person should choose to tune as long as they understand the risks, however low, and that they practice throttle discipline in order to prolong reliability, especially for the clutch. And given that, according to the data, the greatest risk for these tunes is clutch wear, it would be prudent to have $2,500 set aside for clutch replacement, just in case, which is much more reasonable for a college student than $10K. Again, a proportional response to risk.

As I get older, it makes more and more sense to just buy the performance you want from a factory car versus puffing up your daily driver with car roids and risking an endless pit of headaches, both in time and money.

I agree with you here, but, again, this is unrealistic as a matter of the nature of the market. For example, I would love to buy a car off the lot that has everything mine has installed from the factory. Heck yeah! I’d like to go to Honda, and say ‘I want that one, with these parts, TYVM!’. But, this isn’t reality, so, we customize our way. For example, the price of my Si OTD (MSRP) + all the money (not including my labor, however that might be calculated) invested into The Hotness™️ Makes her about a $40K vehicle. BUT, there is no vehicle priced at $40K that I can buy out the gate that has everything she has! From all of the engine and transmission parts, the interior, including real matte carbon trim (TY, Pegasus!), to the exterior, including the carbon hood, the lights, the audio… I cannot buy such a complete package, and thus I have to make it myself. Plus, I get to learn in the process. And with thoughtfulness, much of the headaches are reduced to mere pangs of frustration, and certainly not endless. Seems a bit hyperbolic, IMO.

Cordial rebuttals welcomed!

 

[TheGreekFreak]

Cordial rebuttals welcomed!

Respect your opinion.....I've just seen the same patterns over and over across several platforms. You'll see plenty of trouble free stock cars after many years, even from more trouble-prone manufacturers (hello VW!). But I've yet to see any turbocharged platform produce trouble free high mileage "conservative" tuned examples over time, beyond a few unicorns.

The money is exactly the point. Someone who doesn't have the replacement engine + labor in disposable cash should NEVER throw away their warranty with a tune.......that's just an irresponsible risk. What happens if actually blows?? Debt, a sob story thread, and a financial hit for something they couldn't actually afford to risk.

I'm not judging, I've been bit by the mod bug in the past. But I also never played around unless I had the cash reserves to cover a catastrophic failure, which would 100% be my fault for messing with the ECU. I don't think enough younger impulsive enthusiasts think this shit through enough, resulting in alot of "sorry to hear brooooo, now build the engine and make it even faster!". Only for the kid to go deeper down a rabbit hole he can't afford......

Also, respectfully, $40K bought you a same model year brand new CTR with a factory warranty. That beats a modded $40K Si in almost every way imo.

But to each their own

 

[Doc_Mello]

Respect your opinion.....I've just seen the same patterns over and over across several platforms. You'll see plenty of trouble free stock cars after many years, even from more trouble-prone manufacturers (hello VW!). But I've yet to see any turbocharged platform produce trouble free high mileage "conservative" tuned examples over time, beyond a few unicorns.

The money is exactly the point. Someone who doesn't have the replacement engine + labor in disposable cash should NEVER throw away their warranty with a tune.......that's just an irresponsible risk. What happens if actually blows?? Debt, a sob story thread, and a financial hit for something they couldn't actually afford to risk.

I'm not judging, I've been bit by the mod bug in the past. But I also never played around unless I had the cash reserves to cover a catastrophic failure, which would 100% be my fault for messing with the ECU. I don't think enough younger impulsive enthusiasts think this shit through enough, resulting in alot of "sorry to hear brooooo, now build the engine and make it even faster!". Only for the kid to go deeper down a rabbit hole he can't afford......

Also, respectfully, $40K bought you a same model year brand new CTR with a factory warranty. That beats a modded $40K Si in almost every way imo.

But to each their own

I also respect your opinion.

1. That paragraph seems anecdotal, which is a logical fallacy.

2. I agree with you up to the point of "...with a tune." All tunes are not created equally (and, to be clear, I'm speaking specifically to this platform. I cannot speak intelligibly to other platforms). Again, given the best quantitative data we have, many OTS tunes are specifically designed to safely increase power while maintaining reliability. Your sentiment about the increased risk is legit, but critical thinking would necessitate a deeper examination into the degree of risk. It seems your position is 'anything other than OEM is bad', which is fine to have; I present a more nuanced position. Now, to your point that not enough younger folks think things fully through... Guilty. Been there, done that, and mostly regretted it. ...Mostly. In light of our shared experience, I agree that younger folks should worth within a reasonable risk tolerance.

3. Sure, but your whole position is predicated on exalting the warranty. Seems like you're fine with other people whom you don't know having their hands all up in your car's goodies. What makes you think I'm the same way? See the issue? I've experienced OEM CTRs, and they are nothing compared to my car because, clearly, my position is based on the overall experience driving the vehicle, not whether or not Honda will replace a failing hose clamp. IMO, no factory CTR will compare to the sensory experience of The Hotness™, and for tuners, that's what it's about: the experience. To be so afraid to mod because of a limited warranty seems sad, at best, because if Honda didn't want us to take advantage of the potential of this platform, they never would have given it a 6MT.

Thoughts?

 

[Chizzo]

If it helps i make 330hp and 340 tq, used ams oil signature 0w-20 oil since day one, 3k oil changes on K&n oil filters. Im at 69k miles and mishimoto oil catch can. Mild tune obviously, been FBO since year 1 and now on year 3. Im at 30.2 mpg and zero issues. The only thing that wears out are my tires, brakes and alcantra hehehe. So 2 full years of banging gears here and there and no issues.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

A lot of the back and forth here though is not really disagreement. Everyone agrees that objectively a tune introduces some risk. Whether that risk is minimal, substantial, or too much becomes a personal decision based on a lot of variables. Like most complex questions, there is no one size fits all answer. Somewhere between the YOLO and no-risk poles is where most folks end up I suspect.

I think there is ample room for discussing specific options and approaches to modding, too. For instance, I tend to be conservative and don't do many if any mods (last one I did was replacing the shift linkage on a Golf R I think). The big reason though isn't fear of problems it's that I dislike changing stuff on a car when I can't do the work myself. Lacking a lift, proper tools, and to be honest all that much talent or skill, there are a ton of things that sound pretty cool that I won't go for even if I have the money. That's because as a personal preference I don't like tossing money at someone else to hot rod my car--the whole point to me is to do it yourself, though as I said, that's a personal preference. And modern cars are extremely complex compared to the vehicles of yesteryear, when as high school kids we could tinker with whatever junkers we had to our hearts' content and actually understand what we were doing (mostly).

At the very least I would certainly think that if you are going to modify your car, you should learn about what you are doing (or paying someone to do), and make informed decisions. The folks here seem to have a lot of good information, but there is no substitute for doing research on your own too!

 

[TheGreekFreak]

Thoughts?

1. Tuners are such a small subset of owners that any claim is anectodal, including yours regarding "safe" OTS tunes. Especially on a gen that is only what, 5 years old?

But show me, across multiple platforms, high mileage examples of daily driven turbocharged cars that have been tuned for many years and required no more than basic maintenance. Again, even with shit like VW, you can find stock GTIs with 120K miles after 10 years that have been relatively trouble free dailys. How many tuned examples can you find like that, if any?

2. Taking an unecessary risk when you, admittedly, wouldn't have the cash to fix the problem it can cause is objectively not wise. Level of risk you're introducing is irrelevant when initial risk is 0 under warranty.

3. For me specifically, I don't "fear" losing a warranty and can also work on my own car. I just trust the engineers at Honda to produce a better overall package over myself + some aftermarket shit. My time is also much more valuable now than it was at 20, leaving me no desire to spend an entire weekend troubleshooting self-inflicted mod problems. Also, respectfully, no aftermarket mods on an Si can replicate the CTR's factory 2.0L, suspension setup, or shifter feel.

I'm not just talking out of my ass. Have modded several cars, some further down the rabbit hole than others. In fact, my brother currently has a protuned WRX that admittedly is wayyy better than stock. While not for me anymore, I get it......I just don't agree with convincing people tuning their daily drivers that fearing a big out of pocket expense and higher maintenance costs is irrational.

On a more general note, I think it's important to have pushback to mods that are generally promoted on forums, just to provide a different perspective. Not trying to be a buzzkill but OP raised a legitimate concern that was stressing him out and I just don't agree with downplaying it given what I've seen across multiple platforms.

 

[Boomstick1832]

Been FBO and Tuned for a couple of years with no issues.

Without complicating things.
1. Hondata base maps are good but a good pro tune will take them further.
2. Going FBO has no consequences. The consequences come from improper installment of parts.
( Know your skills and be honest with yourself if you need a proper shop to install something...I've had to do that a few times and I used to be an ASE certified tech )

3. The Tune makes the difference. If you go for an anti-lag build for pops and burbles yeah you might shorten the life of the motor.

I kept everything conservative and focused on things like Air flow, fuel and a tune to match it.
When you get into building the motor or any kind of aftermarket fueling (Meth, E85) that's when things can be tricky, but once again a solid tuner who knows their stuff, and a thoughtful build will give you the fewest issues.

Note: I'm in the process of building my motor and taking my car to the next step. I did about a year of research on parts, my goals as a driver, and reputable shops that can handle the work as well as a tuner who can translate that into a MAP for my car.

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