Ran Carbotech XP-20's up front for the first time at VIR - a word caution

djhartm

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I wanted a bit more brake than the XP-12's were providing, so I switched to the XP-20's halfway through instructing for Tarheel BMW on VIR North. The XP-20's were definitely a step above in terms of bite, modulation, and outright braking. I could easily enter threshold braking and further compress my braking zones. It was wonderful, until they overheated and I boiled the Castrol SRF in the right caliper.

They got so hot, they massively discolored my calipers.

After I bled the air out of the right caliper, I noticed heavy material x-fer on the rotors, which caused a massive vibration under heavy braking during my next session.

I decided to park the car and missed the last several sessions.

Carbotech said the system overheated and the rotors needed to be turned.

So until the 20's wear out, I will have to modulate my braking, then go back to XP-12's, or find a way to introduce more cooling into the front brakes wither through ductwork, better rotors (probably AP Racing), titanium shims, or all of the above.

So, word of warning, the OEM system works well up to a point, If you track be cognizant that you will likely need better brake cooling if running very aggressive pads.

The XP-12's seem to be about as aggressive as you can go with the stock setup as they never overheated the system.



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I ran XP12s on my Evo. I felt like it could have used the XP20s and was thinking about getting them for the CTR. I think I'll stick with the XP12s.

What pad are you running in the rear?
 
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I ran XP12s on my Evo. I felt like it could have used the XP20s and was thinking about getting them for the CTR. I think I'll stick with the XP12s.

What pad are you running in the rear?
I'm running the XP-10's in the rear, which work fine.

The 20's create a bit more wiggle on initial bite/weight x-fer, but nothing disconcerting. The 12/10 combo felt a bit more balanced, but man the braking offered by the 20's is just phenomenal. You just need to run cooling ducts and/or better vented rotors.
 

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You may want to look into something like Girodisc rotors. Their improved cooling may be able to withstand the heat of the 20s. I would also consider Endless RF-650 instead of the SRF.

Did you melt your dust boots too? Thinking about removing them when swapping to track pads and reinstalling afterwords with street pads. Don't think they're necessary on track since a lot of race calipers don't use them. There are high temp versions available, but I've heard of those getting melted too.
 
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djhartm

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You may want to look into something like Girodisc rotors. They're improved cooling may be able to withstand the heat of the 20s. I would also consider Endless RF-650 instead of the SRF.

Did you melt your dust boots too? Thinking about removing them when swapping to track pads and reinstalling afterwords with street pads. Don't think they're necessary on track since a lot of race calipers don't use them. Their are high temp versions available, but I've heard of those getting melted too.
In 7 years of tracking and instructing I have never boiled SRF, which is generally considered to be the gold standard of racing brake fluid. I've boiled Motul 660 before (crap) in my Z06 which led to a catastrophic off. I'll look into the Endless and will inspect the boots when I remove the rotors to be turned. Thanks for mentioning that.

The Type-R needs dedicated brake ducting from the opening in the wheel well to the brake rotor/calipers when running aggressive pads like the 20's; I wonder if anyone makes them or if you have to engineer your own.

Totally agree; Girodisc or APR's would be the way to go rotor-wise. I run APR's on my Z06 & their brakes kits are indefatigable. Essex now sells them for the Type-R's but they aren't cheap. :-0
 

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In 7 years of tracking and instructing I have never boiled SRF, which is generally considered to be the gold standard of racing brake fluid. I've boiled Motul 660 before (crap) in my Z06 which led to a catastrophic off. I'll look into the Endless and will inspect the boots when I remove the rotors to be turned. Thanks for mentioning that.

The Type-R needs dedicated brake ducting from the opening in the wheel well to the brake rotor/calipers when running aggressive pads like the 20's; I wonder if anyone makes them or if you have to engineer your own.

Totally agree; Girodisc or APR's would be the way to go rotor-wise. I run APR's on my Z06 & their brakes kits are indefatigable. Essex now sells them for the Type-R's but they aren't cheap. :-0
I can't get myself to spend that much on rotors and am not fast/trying to break any records so I'll probably go with Centric replacements. They're like $50 each on RockAuto. SRF is certainly king for wet boiling point, but RF-650 has a higher dry boiling point and better compressability qualities. It's the same fluid used by the Mercedes F1 team and comes as the standard fill on the race-spec Porsches. SRF being silcone-based gives me pause, but it's no doubt also a great brake fluid. Interested to hear your follow-up.
 
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I can't get myself to spend that much on rotors and am not fast/trying to break any records so I'll probably go with Centric replacements. They're like $50 each on RockAuto. SRF is certainly king for wet boiling point, but RF-650 has a higher dry boiling point and better compressability qualities. It's the same fluid used by the Mercedes F1 team and comes as the standard fill on the race-spec Porsches. SRF being silcone-based gives me pause, but it's no doubt also a great brake fluid. Interested to hear your follow-up.
I have two sets of Centrics.

The problem is being drilled, they crack easily. But with a moderate track pad, you can get several events out of them before the cracking becomes severe, probably more depending upon your level & braking style.

FWIW, I noticed NO difference when the OEM Brembo floaters died and the cheapo Centrics.

None.

If I could find someone that makes a cheap solid blank, I'd put those on. :)
 

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I have two sets of Centrics.

The problem is being drilled, they crack easily. But with a moderate track pad, you can get several events out of them before the cracking becomes severe, probably more depending upon your level & braking style.

FWIW, I noticed NO difference when the OEM Brembo floaters died and the cheapo Centrics.

None.

If I could find someone that makes a cheap solid blank, I'd put those on. :)
Dang, sucks that they crack. Are these the ones you have? https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=10899808&cc=3441249&jsn=2153

I haven't been keeping tabs on the price of the 2020 two-piece stock blanks, but they could be a good alternative once we hopefully get some feedback from people running them.
 
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djhartm

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Just ordered the Centric 32040098 from Rock Auto.

Hope they are the correct rotors and they fit.

At $45/ea, if I can get a few events out of them, it would be worthwhile.

Will be switching back to the XP-12's when the 20's are gone, but have to remember to modulate braking this weekend instructing for Chin again at VIR Full.
 

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hey guys. interesting discussion. i might have some useful input. first off, my CTR is my daily driver and I don't track it (I have dedicated race cars for that). the car I'm going to talk about concerning the braking is my 95 EG Civic with K24/20 EFR7163 turbo 6sp drivetrain (power adjustable from 450 to 550whp). the car with me in it weighs just under 2400 lbs (much lighter than our CTRs). it's pretty fast (last year did 2:01.9 lap at the UTCC at VIR in the saturday 'shootout' race). I run 15" wheels on this car (4 sets of them depending on the conditons and the sanctioning body), and because of the 15s the biggest brakes I can fit upfront are 11" dia (basically I run an early NSX dual piston caliper on a 11" Prelude VTEC front rotor with some mods to fit the Integra upright). I have big front brake ducts that blow on the center of the rotor. at VIR during a flyer lap I'll top out on the back straight (~160 mph at 8450 rpm in 6th) and also the same on the front straight, so I'm putting some serious heat into the brakes coming into T1 and coming into RollerCoaster. so far the only pads that I've run that can withstand that heat are the Raybestos ST43 (and ST47 too) compounds. the place I get them from will custom make any pad shape you want and bond the ST4x compound to them. they aren't cheap but they will f'ing stop the car! (BTW I've tried most of the Porterfield, Hawk, PF, and Carbotech compounds). so far the Raybestos is the only thing I'll put on the front of my car (prior to adding the big turbo, back when it was NA at about 210-220 whp, any of those other brake pads would work just fine on any track. after the big turbo is when I started having braking issues. the Raybestos will stop the car every time. they never 'melt' onto the rotor and leave bad deposits and cause vibrations. they simply are awesome. I know they are expensive but again, they are the best pads I've tried to date.

BUT - (you knew there was a but coming right? lol). you have to be ready to expect that the added heat and aggressive compound will have some consequences. like for instance: I had to wrap my tie rod ends with exhaust wrap because they'd catch fire and the rubber and grease would flare off them on the first 10 min session. the rotors get extremely hot (extremely extremely - they glow brightly and can be seen on a sunny day). the rotors don't last very long; typically I'll go through one set of front ST43/47 and in that time I'll crack my way through about 3-4 sets of front rotors (at least they are fairly cheap). don't buy drilled or slotted ones; I buy brembo blank rotors. they last better than anything slotted or drilled (Definitely don't buy drilled they crack almost immediately). my calipers hold up pretty well but they get very hot - they are cast iron (thats what they used back then) and are always very rusty looking (like when you throw cast iron into a campfire - it rusts instantly when it cools). about every 3-4 years I rebuild them and replace the piston seals. I don't bother replacing the dust boots as they flame out and burn off in the first 10 minute session. you don't need the dust boots at all on a track car. be sure to clean and regrease the slider pins every 1-2 hrs as the grease will cook off (not a concern with our CTRs as they are 4 piston without sliders). be sure to flush and completely bleed the brake fluid every weekend (I don't use the SRF it's just too expensive when you are flushing it every 1-2 hrs of use. I use Wilwood EXP but I think any decent racing fluid will do if you are changing it every 1-2 hrs)

hope that insight helps you guys. be safe and have fun!
 

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@d15b7 , your EG sounds friggin' awesome lol. The ST43 seems to be a pretty popular pick among those tracking their CTRs. You're right - they are a little more expensive, but it's not for no reason. I was thinking about trying the Project Mu Club Racers up front (~$150 for the front set) and running something less aggressive in the rear to save on cost. I don't need the greatest stopping power as I'll just be tracking for fun and am still a noob. I don't know of any blank front rotors available for the CTR unfortunately - they're all either drilled, slotted, or both. Glad you've confirmed that dust boots aren't needed on track - I'll just swap them back in when going back to street pads after a track day. Thanks for sharing all the info including the Wilwood EXP fluid - I had never heard of it but after doing some more research, it seems to be a great fluid at an exceptional price. @djhartm you may also want to consider titanium brake pad shims for your front calipers. They dissipate heat well which leads to a lower chance of boiling fluid.
 
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@d15b7 , your EG sounds friggin' awesome lol. The ST43 seems to be a pretty popular pick among those tracking their CTRs. You're right - they are a little more expensive, but it's not for no reason. I was thinking about trying the Project Mu Club Racers up front (~$150 for the front set) and running something less aggressive in the rear to save on cost. I don't need the greatest stopping power as I'll just be tracking for fun and am still a noob. I don't know of any blank front rotors available for the CTR unfortunately - they're all either drilled, slotted, or both. Glad you've confirmed that dust boots aren't needed on track - I'll just swap them back in when going back to street pads after a track day. Thanks for sharing all the info including the Wilwood EXP fluid - I had never heard of it but after doing some more research, it seems to be a great fluid at an exceptional price. @djhartm you may also want to consider titanium brake pad shims for your front calipers. They dissipate heat well which leads to a lower chance of boiling fluid.
I may try the Raybestos as well. I've heard good things about them on Corvetteforum, but most instructors at VIR seem to run Hawks for some reason.

Yes, I may order the Ti shields as well - thanks.

Brake pads are like discussing oil & religion. :)

I can trap in the low 160 MPH range in my Z06 with a good drive out of T12 @VIR. In the CTR, 133 is normal in the summer, 141 in the cooler spring & fall.

2:01 is moving. My PB is 2:06.9 on Cup 2's in the Z06. I think I'm running in the 2:13 range in the CTR, though I've never timed any sessions.

I've instructed at 10 events last year, and this weekend will be my 4th for 2020 (damn Covid - VIR was closed for 8+ weeks), so cost control on consumables like brakes and tires is more important to me than outright performance (within reason).
 

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@d15b7 , your EG sounds friggin' awesome lol. The ST43 seems to be a pretty popular pick among those tracking their CTRs. You're right - they are a little more expensive, but it's not for no reason. I was thinking about trying the Project Mu Club Racers up front (~$150 for the front set) and running something less aggressive in the rear to save on cost. I don't need the greatest stopping power as I'll just be tracking for fun and am still a noob. I don't know of any blank front rotors available for the CTR unfortunately - they're all either drilled, slotted, or both. Glad you've confirmed that dust boots aren't needed on track - I'll just swap them back in when going back to street pads after a track day. Thanks for sharing all the info including the Wilwood EXP fluid - I had never heard of it but after doing some more research, it seems to be a great fluid at an exceptional price. @djhartm you may also want to consider titanium brake pad shims for your front calipers. They dissipate heat well which leads to a lower chance of boiling fluid.
Ive ran PMU CR Front and Rear before, they’re a good intermediate pad but they wore out quickly. I actually wore out all of the pad material at laguna and almost had catastrophic failure going into T2. Not the pads fault as I was pushing it past their limit. They lasted me some street miles and 3 track days.

PMU rear pads wear extremely well. After a dozen track days I had 50% in the rear.

I’ve also run ST43 pads before paired with PMU CR in the rear. The ST43 pads are the same pads I used for. 1:43 lap at laguna. This was paired with Girodisc rotors, Ti shims and SRF fluid. I really liked this pad but you do need to be careful because it is very aggressive and abrasive. SRF fluid is very good but I prefer the endless stuff. The SRF would always get spongey towards the end of the day. Pedal would be fine the next day though.

This time around I’ll be running:
Sakebomb Garage Rotors (I will be replacing the rings with AP replacements down the line)
Stock rear rotor
Sakebomb SS lines
Endless RF-650
Raybestos ST43 front pads
PMU Club Racer rear pads
 

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Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware there are no mass-manufactured brake ducts at this time, with the exception of the Honda Performance Department parts for racing teams. We have plenty of other stuff that goes there like oil coolers and secondary radiators, but for some reason nobody has made their own brake ducts.

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Brake Duct ($678 each)
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Brake Duct Tubing ($928)
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Front Fascia Duct ($437 each)

So, from HPD, a total ooooof.... $3158 :) 😭
 








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