rampage drop in turbo

[RBrackett]

I would classify myself as a bit of a "lurker" on here. I try not to dive too deeply into a response because I can tend to get a bit long winded in my posts, simply because it's required in order to fully explain your perspective without any misunderstandings or miscommunications.

I have to say, from the multiple posts that I've seen you write, you certainly are a valued member in this community. You certainly contribute whenever possible with great first handle knowledge and insight, yet clearly articulate your thought without being overbearing.

I say all of this because THIS particular post speaks to MY THOUGHTS exactly, so that I don't need to write all of that. I will, however, continue on. With a career beginning in quarter midgets, on to karting, and finishing off in a few divisions of open wheel racing, I come into this with a slightly different perspective the many Si or even Type R owners on here.

That said, the turbo "upgrade" that your referring to MAY end up producing more power, and even lead to an overall faster lap time (once you wrangle it). However if the balance is lost and the ability to CONSISTENTLY put your best times down is sacrificed, then all is for not. Quite often you will see cars, especially in the dedicated racing world, that a car with great, consistent pace (and a good driver ) will win out over a car that can simply out qualify on raw, one lap speed. Maybe a bad example, but Max Verstappen with RedBull getting the better of Bottas comes to mind. But I digress.

There's just so many factors in these kind of decisions. YES, in the racing world that figure (10k per second) is a dream CBA actually. Yet where and how YOU will be using it...depending on what regulatory class it could move you to (if your competing) or simply just ruining the feel and making it HARDER/more work to achieve good times (although faster when done) makes the difference. It becomes NOT WORTH it. Still, this is all assuming one is using it for circuit use...many only care about drag racing (why did you get the car) or third gear pulls on up on the street/freeway. Some just like "JDM bling" parts and getting parts under the hood that produce a good dyno figure.

Finally, and anecdotally, I had an RX7 that I put an LS in back in 2007. The car was fast and even, admittedly, fun in the right situation. Yet I really lost the love for the car. I had taken it too far and the car lost it's identity, if you know what I mean. I already had a few FAST, track dedicated cars. This felt different and I lost that.

Anyway...sorry everyone. I told you I can run on.

I appreciate the long winded comments actually. I find them insightful. I agree on your points. For me I don't track and don't expect to outside of MAYBE a couple days total on the life of the car if that. For me 3rd gear pulls on the highway is where I stay most of the time so even over heating isn't really an issue for me since I'll rarely be leaning on it hard for an extended amount of time.

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[turbociv910]

So yeah about 40k in mods if you're going balls out on this car. Easily. That's not including a sequential which would basically make the car undriveable on the street. lol.

Thats not true, i drove a quaife sequential K series box in a RWD car on the street all the time.

 

[SAKE BOMB]

All it needs is a good tune that keeps the torque below the limit. The HP can go as high as the sky allow it but the torque is the one that you need to watch out. Basic principle of modded turbocharged cars on a budget.

Yes, you nailed it! That bottom end will handle 500HP+. Key is to upgrade the clutch/fuel system as already stated by someone, and what’s also vital; a reputable tuner. Anything more, will require a built motor.

 

[HomieGohan]

@ipeefreely From what I have seen on social media you're a very well experienced driver and have experience with many types of chassis for CTA. Besides the 3rd and 4th gear of the car - how do you know you reached the limit of the car with the mods you already have? Do you really need to spend 20k~ to shave off 2 seconds or is there still areas you can improve on to shave off the 2 seconds?

 

[ipeefreely]

@ipeefreely From what I have seen on social media you're a very well experienced driver and have experience with many types of chassis for CTA. Besides the 3rd and 4th gear of the car - how do you know you reached the limit of the car with the mods you already have? Do you really need to spend 20k~ to shave off 2 seconds or is there still areas you can improve on to shave off the 2 seconds?

haha thanks for the kind words but I'm not the fastest driver around. I've been lucky to have been involved in some popular platforms in the past couple of years and even luckier to have met individuals who are far faster / more knowledgeable than me. So I guess the credit should be given to those individuals. Not me. I'm just around for moral and financial support. haha.

Anyways...

My guess in that it would probably take about 20k to shave off 2 seconds is based around the cost of building the engine. In it's current configuration, the car will probably do a 1.38 (or a 1.36 with a skilled driver). With about 100-150 more hp, I think it will do a ~ 1.34...? Hence... 2 seconds for 20k.

That's REALLY fast.

Just for reference, we have a pro driver piloting a K24 swapped Exige that's knocking on 1.35.



We might be able to get that 2 seconds via some more tuning of the suspension, running slicks, and more seat time but that's being optimistic. We could also run a more aggressive tune and put the power north of 400.... But the idea was to run the car reliably..., not one lap. lol.

 

[ipeefreely]

Thats not true, i drove a quaife sequential K series box in a RWD car on the street all the time.

haha. Good for you. I wouldn't be able to do it.

 

[ipeefreely]

I would classify myself as a bit of a "lurker" on here. I try not to dive too deeply into a response because I can tend to get a bit long winded in my posts, simply because it's required in order to fully explain your perspective without any misunderstandings or miscommunications.

I have to say, from the multiple posts that I've seen you write, you certainly are a valued member in this community. You certainly contribute whenever possible with great first handle knowledge and insight, yet clearly articulate your thought without being overbearing.

I say all of this because THIS particular post speaks to MY THOUGHTS exactly, so that I don't need to write all of that. I will, however, continue on. With a career beginning in quarter midgets, on to karting, and finishing off in a few divisions of open wheel racing, I come into this with a slightly different perspective the many Si or even Type R owners on here.

That said, the turbo "upgrade" that your referring to MAY end up producing more power, and even lead to an overall faster lap time (once you wrangle it). However if the balance is lost and the ability to CONSISTENTLY put your best times down is sacrificed, then all is for not. Quite often you will see cars, especially in the dedicated racing world, that a car with great, consistent pace (and a good driver ) will win out over a car that can simply out qualify on raw, one lap speed. Maybe a bad example, but Max Verstappen with RedBull getting the better of Bottas comes to mind. But I digress.

There's just so many factors in these kind of decisions. YES, in the racing world that figure (10k per second) is a dream CBA actually. Yet where and how YOU will be using it...depending on what regulatory class it could move you to (if your competing) or simply just ruining the feel and making it HARDER/more work to achieve good times (although faster when done) makes the difference. It becomes NOT WORTH it. Still, this is all assuming one is using it for circuit use...many only care about drag racing (why did you get the car) or third gear pulls on up on the street/freeway. Some just like "JDM bling" parts and getting parts under the hood that produce a good dyno figure.

Finally, and anecdotally, I had an RX7 that I put an LS in back in 2007. The car was fast and even, admittedly, fun in the right situation. Yet I really lost the love for the car. I had taken it too far and the car lost it's identity, if you know what I mean. I already had a few FAST, track dedicated cars. This felt different and I lost that.

Anyway...sorry everyone. I told you I can run on.

haha. That was a nice read.


... But yeah! I totally agree.


At some point, the car is modded beyond what is fun. I think sometimes you just get lost in the build and realize only after it's too late. lol.

 

[Jpierro79]

The rampage 450 will work very well with a stock engine car and if tuned correctly will function perfectly fine on a stock fuel system car.
I want to clarify there are now plenty of stock internal type r running 430-450 torque at the wheels and 450- 500 wheel hp. I have yet to here of a failure. Clearly the 400 hp failure was due to a different reason. The direct injector on a type r sprays at almost 90 degrees to piston position due to placement in the back of the head. If you drop too much fuel pressure and keep the injector open too long you will create a very unstable and erratic fuel mixture which will ignite and burn unevenly creating pressure to one side of the piston and possibly cause detonation. its very likely this is what happened to the early engine failure a few years ago. This is a theory but the science makes sense.
If 400 really was the limit we would have seen a lot more blown motors cause tons of cars are near or over the limit. Every car ive ever modified can take at least 20-30 percent more torque. Anything with factory forged rods 30-40 percent more torque.Thats the least amount. The whole 400 has also been disproved by hondata e40 tune running for over a year at 430wheel torque. I use 430 cause its what it puts out on dynojet dyno. I use only dynojet as benchmark cause ive found that its the only one that backs up 1/4 mile mph calculations which is a true measure of HP. Torque is what kills engines not HP. Lower torque means less rod pressure.

I know of 2 upgraded turbo cars running 28 psi and over 450whl. I know of one stock turbo hondata fuel system car making 430wheel. I am running water meth im over 400wheel. The biggest dangers that i see is what i here from self tuning community. Desensitizing knock too much and not using a knock listening device. Your ears do not count. If your on the cusp of an occasional knock retard taking and decreasing 3 percent to keep from occasional knock i could see that. Ive heard as much as 20 percent from people. Thats way too much and if you have a bad tank of gas or are running ethanol and get inconsistent batch of fuel you will do damage. theres nothing to even clue you in theres an issue. Audible knock is a too late scenario and far over the limit. From personal experience running 93 its not worth the difference. ive spent way more than your average person time wise on finding what this car likes safely in all types of conditions. You can make 375 wheel hp without desnsitizing knock on 93 alone. You will get more power from increased boost than timing at that point. Think is 5-10 hp worth your engine??? Plus extra timing increases cylinder pressure which increases heat so if you plan on doing more than a single 1/4 mile pull or multiple pulls id highly suggest not pushing the limit. Fuel stability under compression is octane but it has nothing to due with burn rate. Ethanol and meth burn slower so more timing is needed so even at the same octane mix ethanol mix can requires more timing. Trust the knock reading.

I will attach a graph which gives an idea of knock. Knock sensor doesnt just listen to noise it detects erratic vibrations from poor burn characteristics. You can see by this graph how knock can damage a cylinder. Its like sending a shock wave through the pistons and rods instead of a push. The point which knock occurs cylinder pressure increases drastically also. Ive read in different studies that 10 degreesof timing can increase cylinder temps as much as 70-100 degrees Celsius. This heat causes detonation.

The only stock failures ive seen are from antilag. Ive yet to actually see a documented case under proper tuning have a failure at 450wheel torque let alone 400. The antilag is set to 250 percent load which is stupid high for a stock motor. You could reduce it to 100 but its still at your own risk. Just brake boost. Derek from IMV is a really cool guy and as a tuner his tunes work and he doesnt push beyond safe limits. Ask him whats safe he wont give you incorrect info. You dont have to take my word for it. His tune numbers actually match performance unlike some other tunes out there. Same with my own. I dont do inflated numbers.Your not going to get 450whp stock turbo. If you do its only one pull and the rest have far less power.E-tunes dont make less power provided theres nothing wrong with the set up and there are no factory fluke cars that magically make more power than others.

4th gear took 2 seasons of 500+whp and 32 psi in a time attack car to break the stock 4th gear. The car did have a built motor. So unless your a gear slammer, have an upgraded clutch, hit the gas before you release the clutch between gears and have 470wheel hp i really wouldnt worry too much.
Theres no proof 3rd gear is an issue.
heres a link to buy a 500 hp capable trans with rv6p 4th gear.

https://www.geardriveninc.com/search.asp?keyword=fk8
3500 for rebuilt with rv6p 4th gear. A new trans is 4700

 

[BrokeCTROwner]

The rampage 450 will work very well with a stock engine car and if tuned correctly will function perfectly fine on a stock fuel system car.
I want to clarify there are now plenty of stock internal type r running 430-450 torque at the wheels and 450- 500 wheel hp. I have yet to here of a failure. Clearly the 400 hp failure was due to a different reason. The direct injector on a type r sprays at almost 90 degrees to piston position due to placement in the back of the head. If you drop too much fuel pressure and keep the injector open too long you will create a very unstable and erratic fuel mixture which will ignite and burn unevenly creating pressure to one side of the piston and possibly cause detonation. its very likely this is what happened to the early engine failure a few years ago. This is a theory but the science makes sense.
If 400 really was the limit we would have seen a lot more blown motors cause tons of cars are near or over the limit. Every car ive ever modified can take at least 20-30 percent more torque. Anything with factory forged rods 30-40 percent more torque.Thats the least amount. The whole 400 has also been disproved by hondata e40 tune running for over a year at 430wheel torque. I use 430 cause its what it puts out on dynojet dyno. I use only dynojet as benchmark cause ive found that its the only one that backs up 1/4 mile mph calculations which is a true measure of HP. Torque is what kills engines not HP. Lower torque means less rod pressure.

I know of 2 upgraded turbo cars running 28 psi and over 450whl. I know of one stock turbo hondata fuel system car making 430wheel. I am running water meth im over 400wheel. The biggest dangers that i see is what i here from self tuning community. Desensitizing knock too much and not using a knock listening device. Your ears do not count. If your on the cusp of an occasional knock retard taking and decreasing 3 percent to keep from occasional knock i could see that. Ive heard as much as 20 percent from people. Thats way too much and if you have a bad tank of gas or are running ethanol and get inconsistent batch of fuel you will do damage. theres nothing to even clue you in theres an issue. Audible knock is a too late scenario and far over the limit. From personal experience running 93 its not worth the difference. ive spent way more than your average person time wise on finding what this car likes safely in all types of conditions. You can make 375 wheel hp without desnsitizing knock on 93 alone. You will get more power from increased boost than timing at that point. Think is 5-10 hp worth your engine??? Plus extra timing increases cylinder pressure which increases heat so if you plan on doing more than a single 1/4 mile pull or multiple pulls id highly suggest not pushing the limit. Fuel stability under compression is octane but it has nothing to due with burn rate. Ethanol and meth burn slower so more timing is needed so even at the same octane mix ethanol mix can requires more timing. Trust the knock reading.

I will attach a graph which gives an idea of knock. Knock sensor doesnt just listen to noise it detects erratic vibrations from poor burn characteristics. You can see by this graph how knock can damage a cylinder. Its like sending a shock wave through the pistons and rods instead of a push. The point which knock occurs cylinder pressure increases drastically also. Ive read in different studies that 1 degree of timing can increase cylinder temps as much as 50-70 degrees Celsius. This heat causes detonation.

The only stock failures ive seen are from antilag. Ive yet to actually see a documented case under proper tuning have a failure at 450wheel torque let alone 400. The antilag is set to 250 percent load which is stupid high for a stock motor. You could reduce it to 100 but its still at your own risk. Just brake boost. Derek from IMV is a really cool guy and as a tuner his tunes work and he doesnt push beyond safe limits. Ask him whats safe he wont give you incorrect info. You dont have to take my word for it. His tune numbers actually match performance unlike some other tunes out there. Same with my own. I dont do inflated numbers.Your not going to get 450whp stock turbo. If you do its only one pull and the rest have far less power.E-tunes dont make less power provided theres nothing wrong with the set up and there are no factory fluke cars that magically make more power than others.

4th gear took 2 seasons of 500+whp and 32 psi in a time attack car to break the stock 4th gear. The car did have a built motor. So unless your a gear slammer, have an upgraded clutch, hit the gas before you release the clutch between gears and have 470wheel hp i really wouldnt worry too much.
Theres no proof 3rd gear is an issue.
heres a link to buy a 500 hp capable trans with rv6p 4th gear.

https://www.geardriveninc.com/search.asp?keyword=fk8
3500 for rebuilt with rv6p 4th gear. A new trans is 4700

This right here is why you’re one of my favorite people on this forum. One of the few who aren’t just talking abort which intake or exhaust is best

 

[turbociv910]

Clearly the 400 hp failure was due to a different reason.

The person/shop who made that claim also happens to sell engines to our platform..

 

[Jpierro79]

This right here is why you’re one of my favorite people on this forum. One of the few who aren’t just talking abort which intake or exhaust is best

I do my best to get the right information out. I do make the occasional typo or mistake. I had to correct the temperature increase of ignition timing its 10 degrees of timing is 70-100 degrees of temperature increase. It’s very hard to try to keep all info accurate. I had a glitch in my phone and my iat and iat2 data readings were reversed so I run it on my car radio now. Oh well no one is perfect.

I’ve actually just tuned my car on water meth. Now that I know what this car really likes I can now tune gas, ethanol mix, water/meth, straight meth, drop in turbo upgrades and full kits including split second port injection add on controller. Pretty much any variation on fk8. Dyno is not really needed till you get near 450whp. It’s not that it can’t be done but that I would prefer not to tell people to do a 4th gear pull on a local road cause 3rd blows the tires off near that power. I’ve tuned cars before but I’ve never researched beyond my own setups till now. I’ve spent the last year testing. I’m finally done lol.
Ethanol can be tuned with it without a sensor. I wouldn’t suggest not having one.

There is an issue with the MAF sensor when it gets near it’s limits to causes afr fluctuations. I’m currently working on values that fix it. The problem is if you just add or subtract the section it can actually throw off ecu calculated fuel pressure. It’s where some people see a 15-20 bar fuel drop with it exceeding the duty cycle. People are thinking it’s a bad fuel pump and It’s not.
If you log look at the point where it hits 4.56 volts or 4.77 volts on the MAF voltage in logging.
Youll also see your short term fuel trims fluctuate at those points. The bad news is anyone fbo running a prl base map or 93 intercooler downpipe map are most likely hanging in this voltage range. If you actually max the MAF sensor out passed that point it smooths back out cause it’s fueling solely by speed density map which we can’t see and self correcting. You mess up the MAF scaling this car will be all over the place with fueling, have 20 bar pressure drops and fuel trims all goofed up.

I’m hoping to fix this with very small value changes and I’ll release it to the everyone on the forum. I’ve actually gone through the trouble to calculate the variance in exponential increases in this areas. Each plot increases by a larger amount but i need to see if the changes in rate of increase are the problem or the other most likely possibility that like any car sensor getting near the limit just causes issues.

Side note running ruthenium plugs instead of iridium works great. Tested 3000 miles datalogs show legitimate improvement in fuel burn.
https://www.ngk.com/ngk-91784-lkar8bhx-ruthenium-hx-plug
Here’s the pages it’s factory gap of .031.

Those running base maps on stock turbo will not need to gap plugs. Custom tunes 26 psi and up suggest .025-.022 gap.

https://www.ngk.com/ngk-97537-r2558e-9-racing-plug
Found these are racing plugs one step colder but can’t be gapped but are at .028 gap. Specs of plugs are identical to stock except closer gap and one step colder plug.

I said I was done lol I’m not I forgot I’m testing MAF scaling lol

 

[turbociv910]

Dyno is not really needed till you get near 450whp. It’s not that it can’t be done but that I would prefer not to tell people to do a 4th gear pull on a local road cause 3rd blows the tires off near that power.

good to know im over 450whp lol. blows 3rd pretty easily now

 

[Jpierro79]

good to know im over 450whp lol. blows 3rd pretty easily now

Stock turbo will start to spin third around 400wheel but requires some type of extra fueling. Unless you have all season tires then an e30 map it custom 93 will spin third. If I was to run stock rim tire I’d spin a lot more in 3rd. If your running 26-27 psi big turbo on e30 you are definitely over 450 unless you’ve got very little ignition timing. The most I seen on stock turbo is 430 wheel hp on e50. It’s not a glory pull either. Thats really the legit limit without going crazy with your fuels. 500cc water meth definitely over 400whp all day when mixed with 93. 91 octane you need 1000cc to make up lost octane.

Friend of mine has re71s in a 275/35/18 and he spins third but he’s e30 big turbo port injected high boost. There are complications with big turbo kits . Even with the wastegate adjustment seeming right it can be slightly out of spec causing slow spool and/or throw a code once in a while. It can literally be the difference between one turn of the adjuster. My friend had to replace his for failing motor jamming. He used the full race guide with a volt meter. This holds true for drop in replacement turbos. A volt meter can help. Any tune you take the actuator off your going to end up adjusting it unless your one lucky sob.

 

[turbociv910]

Stock turbo will start to spin third around 400wheel but requires some type of extra fueling. Unless you have all season tires then an e30 map it custom 93 will spin third. If I was to run stock rim tire I’d spin a lot more in 3rd. If your running 26-27 psi big turbo on e30 you are definitely over 450 unless you’ve got very little ignition timing.

It can literally be the difference between one turn of the adjuster.

i run the efr setup with the stock gate, the flimsy bracket had some issues i posted about in my build thread.. going back to the efr gate fixed it and def is right now. I spin on pump gas pretty good and e85 or e70 its blowing the tires off. i ran 28 psi on the stock gate/efr turbo, but haven't run it since it spools faster now. It comes on harder since its being held shut better.

they say park position needs to be +-.02mm of target in the ecu, with 1 turn being 1 mm, thats 50 times the spec lol lucky i never had to deal with that (motec)

 

[Jpierro79]

The closed position on the actuator can read .00 and still be under adjusted. Log the wastegate position and if it goes to negative during spool it’s very likely under adjusted. Efr bracket does flex a little. The actuator automatically goes to 0 position and stops but during spool it pulls harder on the gate forcing negative numbers. That’s how you’ll know if it’s off cause as soon as you try to get boost it throws code. It will say .00 but will instantly go out of spec the moment it tries to close while engine is running and you hit the throttle. It’s actually best to see .02 because it means it can’t close any more. At negative -.30 it will throw the code. Also under adjusted will cause larger boost fluctuations.

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