Question about track setup for type R

Lust

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1.Definitely a huge upgrade over stock. Much better consistent grip and takes a bit longer to get greasy.

2. I triggered ABS a bit with the ST43s but that's more of a driver thing than a setup thing IMO. Great pad but a bit agressive on rotors. I also ran the Girodisc two piece rotor.

3. Easily get 4-6 days on them. They wont be as fast as the cheater tires but do a great job with giving decent times for a reasonable price.

I did a 1:43 at laguna with just those mods pretty much

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1.Definitely a huge upgrade over stock. Much better consistent grip and takes a bit longer to get greasy.

2. I triggered ABS a bit with the ST43s but that's more of a driver thing than a setup thing IMO. Great pad but a bit agressive on rotors. I also ran the Girodisc two piece rotor.

3. Easily get 4-6 days on them. They wont be as fast as the cheater tires but do a great job with giving decent times for a reasonable price.

I did a 1:43 at laguna with just those mods pretty much

Thank you for your input!

Great driving! Did your car stay cool or did it overheat during your lapping? If it did, how many laps before it did?

Thank you!

Mike
 
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gbhstrat

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I agree. I live 10 minutes from Pacific Raceways so it makes it too easy. My Son is the PCA track engineer and I am an instructor. It makes great father son weekends. I tracked a 996TT that I spent a fortune on. GT2 control arms, End links, coil overs, race limited slip diff, converted to 2WD, light weight flywheel, GT2 clutch conversion, solid motor mounts, re-flash tune, intake , etc. I would burn through a set of R comps every 20 or so heat cycles. Pagid pads at $350 an axle. New rotors every year, D%^&$ it was expensive! I am a systems architect and make good coin but I am a bottom feeder in the Porsche club run groups. We switched to STIs for several years and they did ok. I am willing to run just Michelin super sports instead or R comps and they last about one season if I don't over drive them. There's no trophy for lapping days. I cant keep up with the new Porsches anyway. I drove a new 991Turbo last year and it was almost too easy to just nail every lap, converting money into smoke and noise.
 

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Thank you for your input!

Great driving! Did your car stay cool or did it overheat during your lapping? If it did, how many laps before it did?

Thank you!

Mike
I had no power adders at all at that time plus it was a cool day. No overheating whatsoever.

I am currently working with Ron Davis to create a radiator solution for the overheating problem.
 

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I had no power adders at all at that time plus it was a cool day. No overheating whatsoever.

I am currently working with Ron Davis to create a radiator solution for the overheating problem.
I'm thinking that the hot weather track overheating issues are more than just the radiator/grill. I've went through simular situations with different platforms. The two items above are just a piece of the puzzle. I suspect that the waterpump may be cavitating and/or the mechanical ratio of the waterpump pulley might be either too big or too small. (Diameter of the pulley) On track the engine is operating at higher RPM'S for an extended period, but in a relatively narrow area. If that area moves the waterpump out of its efficiency range actual water FLOW will suffer and it will overheat. Only R&D will reveal the actual issue and the solution. It isn't magic, the combination of parts has yet to be found. Also products like Redline Water Wetter increase heat transfer to aid in cooling. Good luck guys! I help this puts some of you on the right track to solving the issue!
 
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hpbyhermann

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Forgot to add that the first thing that I would try would be a slightly larger diameter waterpump pulley. The reason for this is most manufacturers overdrive the ratio that the waterpump spins compared to engine speed. Slowing the pump will reduce or eliminate cavitation. But again look at the big picture for flow restrictions too, these can reduce flow and cause issues just like cavitation!:thumbsup:
 

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I had no power adders at all at that time plus it was a cool day. No overheating whatsoever.

I am currently working with Ron Davis to create a radiator solution for the overheating problem.
That's cool. I'd love to hear more. I was under the impression that others have upgraded the radiator and still overheat.
 
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gbhstrat

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I ran water wetter for years in my liquid cooled 911TT. They were notorious for having a cooling fitting pop off the block and spew glycol all over the track. I witnessed a huge accident when a 911 blew a fitting and the GT3RS behind him lost control and clipped a wall at 140+ MPH. It was at the end of the straight going into turn one at Pacific Raceway. I was 50 yards behind it. The instructor that was driving actually had his insurance agent as a student that day that day and the agent got insurance to pay even though technical it was not covered. Nice 150K recovery! Nobody was hurt bad because it was not a direct hit on the wall. I ran water wetter after that. Glycol is super slippery and shuts down the track until they can clean it up. I did shifter Karts for several years and in Kart racing you are forced to use water wetter. My fitting blew on the track the following year. The track chairman almost kissed me when I came into the pits and told him that its only water. That cost by 4k to fix. Porsche sure blew it on that design. Total BS they had no recall for it.
 

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That's cool. I'd love to hear more. I was under the impression that others have upgraded the radiator and still overheat.
The available radiators in my opinion are not efficient enough at all. They wouldn’t come close to the quality of a proper racing radiator
 

Lust

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I'm thinking that the hot weather track overheating issues are more than just the radiator/grill. I've went through simular situations with different platforms. The two items above are just a piece of the puzzle. I suspect that the waterpump may be cavitating and/or the mechanical ratio of the waterpump pulley might be either too big or too small. (Diameter of the pulley) On track the engine is operating at higher RPM'S for an extended period, but in a relatively narrow area. If that area moves the waterpump out of its efficiency range actual water FLOW will suffer and it will overheat. Only R&D will reveal the actual issue and the solution. It isn't magic, the combination of parts has yet to be found. Also products like Redline Water Wetter increase heat transfer to aid in cooling. Good luck guys! I help this puts some of you on the right track to solving the issue!
Honda engineers claim an 18F improvement with the grill and new 2020 radiator. The only perceivable difference with the 2020 radiator is a higher fin density.
 


hpbyhermann

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Honda engineers claim an 18F improvement with the grill and new 2020 radiator. The only perceivable difference with the 2020 radiator is a higher fin density.
I'm quite sure the new radiator and grill is an improvement but I'm sure that the other areas I spoke of will be important to fixing the issues.
 

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Honda engineers claim an 18F improvement with the grill and new 2020 radiator. The only perceivable difference with the 2020 radiator is a higher fin density.
Very cool, is there a link for this number?
 

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gbhstrat:

I would suggest reading everything you can on this Forum about how challenging it is to turn the Type R from the amazing street car it is into the amazing track car it almost is.

I'd start by reading peefree's "Civic Type R FK8 Build thread", and follow that by reading the "Civic Type R at the track, goods and bads." I wish I had....

There are numerous short comings in the Type R that don't surface until the Type R is pushed hard, lap after lap, at the track. And then it really falls apart, unfortunately.

The biggest issue, as you can see from the posts on this thread is cooling. Any track day over 85 degrees is going to be problematic. Sure, run the heater, add water wetter, add a J's grill, and an after market hood with extra vents, drill out some of the plastic shrouding at the front of the car, add bigger oil cooler(s), radiator, inter-cooler, etc and you will reduce, not totally solve, the problem. Is the '20 version better? I doubt it. They seem to have put the Honda version of the aftermarket "J's grill", that so many people here use. It helps a bit.

As the engine gets hot the computer starts pulling power, top speed goes from 130 mph to 120 mph. Then you have to run a cool down lap every 3-4 laps to keep from going into limp mode (top speed 40 mph-I did it entering the straight srtetch at Mid-Ohio, there is no track thrill that compares to being overtaken by cars going 100 mph faster than you are!).

All of these mods are $$$$, plus cost of installation. None seems to totally fix the problem, tho peefree may have?

Next is tire wear. There is almost no ability to add negative camber without re-engineering the front suspension. Many have done it, the after market has all the parts, but it is $$$, again. I ran 18" aftermarket wheels with RE71R's (265/40/18) and corded my outside edges after 3 track days.

Next up: brakes. I was metal on metal on my rear brakes after 2 track days. Again, it is easy to go with upgraded rotors and add track pads, and drive with stability mgt off. As before tho, this is $$$.

If you manage these issues, the Type R is a fabulous track car. The seats are perfect, ditto visibility, great mpg to and from the track, great sound system, lots of storage for tools, spare wheels, etc. And who doesn't like pushing Porsches around, especially with a Honda Civic?

I ultimately ran out of $, and patience, and traded my R in for something slower but easier to maintain at the track. It was not an easy decision. The R was the best street car I have ever owned, and I have owned plenty. It made every trip to the grocery store an adventure. But I bought it as my track car and could not see getting it totally track ready, within the budget I had.

Food for thought.
 

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1.Definitely a huge upgrade over stock. Much better consistent grip and takes a bit longer to get greasy.

2. I triggered ABS a bit with the ST43s but that's more of a driver thing than a setup thing IMO. Great pad but a bit agressive on rotors. I also ran the Girodisc two piece rotor.

3. Easily get 4-6 days on them. They wont be as fast as the cheater tires but do a great job with giving decent times for a reasonable price.

I did a 1:43 at laguna with just those mods pretty much


Man, you make it look easy. My present track day car is a C5Z06 Corvette and there is no way my hands would be so calm.

I have been very happy with ST43s on the vette. Do you have them just on the fronts or all 4 corners?
 
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gbhstrat:

I would suggest reading everything you can on this Forum about how challenging it is to turn the Type R from the amazing street car it is into the amazing track car it almost is.

I'd start by reading peefree's "Civic Type R FK8 Build thread", and follow that by reading the "Civic Type R at the track, goods and bads." I wish I had....

There are numerous short comings in the Type R that don't surface until the Type R is pushed hard, lap after lap, at the track. And then it really falls apart, unfortunately.

The biggest issue, as you can see from the posts on this thread is cooling. Any track day over 85 degrees is going to be problematic. Sure, run the heater, add water wetter, add a J's grill, and an after market hood with extra vents, drill out some of the plastic shrouding at the front of the car, add bigger oil cooler(s), radiator, inter-cooler, etc and you will reduce, not totally solve, the problem. Is the '20 version better? I doubt it. They seem to have put the Honda version of the aftermarket "J's grill", that so many people here use. It helps a bit.

As the engine gets hot the computer starts pulling power, top speed goes from 130 mph to 120 mph. Then you have to run a cool down lap every 3-4 laps to keep from going into limp mode (top speed 40 mph-I did it entering the straight srtetch at Mid-Ohio, there is no track thrill that compares to being overtaken by cars going 100 mph faster than you are!).

All of these mods are $$$$, plus cost of installation. None seems to totally fix the problem, tho peefree may have?

Next is tire wear. There is almost no ability to add negative camber without re-engineering the front suspension. Many have done it, the after market has all the parts, but it is $$$, again. I ran 18" aftermarket wheels with RE71R's (265/40/18) and corded my outside edges after 3 track days.

Next up: brakes. I was metal on metal on my rear brakes after 2 track days. Again, it is easy to go with upgraded rotors and add track pads, and drive with stability mgt off. As before tho, this is $$$.


If you manage these issues, the Type R is a fabulous track car. The seats are perfect, ditto visibility, great mpg to and from the track, great sound system, lots of storage for tools, spare wheels, etc. And who doesn't like pushing Porsches around, especially with a Honda Civic?

I ultimately ran out of $, and patience, and traded my R in for something slower but easier to maintain at the track. It was not an easy decision. The R was the best street car I have ever owned, and I have owned plenty. It made every trip to the grocery store an adventure. But I bought it as my track car and could not see getting it totally track ready, within the budget I had.

Food for thought.
Wow, thanks for such a honest review. That's the info I needed. If I get one, it will be driven hard. I have hundreds of laps at my local tracks. Even when I "promise" not to drive my son's M3 too hard, it impossible to hold back when you are picking your way through the run group.
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