PRL Motorsports P600 Honda Civic Type-R FK8 Drop-In Turbocharger Upgrade Development

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Going off topic here a bit aren't we chaps.... :)
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Let’s stop talking hondata fuel stuff ask your tuner cause if you don’t understand what’s actually being changed in the software you shouldn’t be touching it.
I want to know if prl changed the Area over Radius. of the turbo or known as the A/R. They estimate 600 hp but if it has really small AR of .42 like the stock turbo is goIng to lose some in higher rpm regardless of wheel size. The specs are similar too the garret but garret use a ..72 AR on the kits and the efr7163 turbo uses a .85. Also even the smallest AR on garret available is .49. Yeah p600 will spool earlier than any aftermarket full kit no doubt about that. I’m not saying it won’t make up to 600 hp but it’s going to require more boost higher rpm. I also wonder how having the stock turbo outlet will effect it. I hope the increased the AR. At least a little bit.
We did not change the A/R, as this process is quite complex process. The P600 will utilize factory A/R, much like the R35 GT-R market drop-in turbo upgrades and most other drop-in turbo upgrades. The factory A/R will help keep turbo response/spool desirable for the masses and still allow 600 horsepower to be achievable for those looking to push this turbocharger to the limits. "Turbine design and efficiency is critical to overall turbocharger effectiveness as it relates to engine performance. " - Turbo, Rear World High-Performance Turbocharger Systems; Performance How-To By Jay K. Miller/Gale Banks Gale Banks speculates that proper turbine size/efficiency is more critical to engine performance than the Area over Radius. Our product development team and tuner has always supported Banks's speculation, which has never failed us. In the instance of excessive back-pressure and teetering on the edge of wheel efficiency/potential, we agree that increasing the wheel size (if possible) is more effective and efficient than increasing A/R when choosing between these two options. Keep in mind that the wheel specs of our P600 are rated to well into the 600's, roughly 650-660 at peak efficiency with a larger turbine housing. The 2.0L engine should allow the P600 to meet its 600 horsepower rating without having excessive backpressure issues, even with this "small" A/R turbine housing. Red Start Motoring already made 500+ horsepower without seeing diminishing returns with our smaller, less efficient prototype turbocharger, so we don't foresee 600 being an issue. As for the turbine outlet; it's huge (~3.75"), so this is most definitely not an issue.
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We did not change the A/R, as this process is quite complex process. The P600 will utilize factory A/R, much like the R35 GT-R market drop-in turbo upgrades and most other drop-in turbo upgrades. The factory A/R will help keep turbo response/spool desirable for the masses and still allow 600 horsepower to be achievable for those looking to push this turbocharger to the limits. "Turbine design and efficiency is critical to overall turbocharger effectiveness as it relates to engine performance. " - Turbo, Rear World High-Performance Turbocharger Systems; Performance How-To By Jay K. Miller/Gale Banks Gale Banks speculates that proper turbine size/efficiency is more critical to engine performance than the Area over Radius. Our product development team and tuner has always supported Banks's speculation, which has never failed us. In the instance of excessive back-pressure and teetering on the edge of wheel efficiency/potential, we agree that increasing the wheel size (if possible) is more effective and efficient than increasing A/R when choosing between these two options. Keep in mind that the wheel specs of our P600 are rated to well into the 600's, roughly 650-660 at peak efficiency with a larger turbine housing. The 2.0L engine should allow the P600 to meet its 600 horsepower rating without having excessive backpressure issues, even with this "small" A/R turbine housing. Red Start Motoring already made 500+ horsepower without seeing diminishing returns with our smaller, less efficient prototype turbocharger, so we don't foresee 600 being an issue. As for the turbine outlet; it's huge (~3.75"), so this is most definitely not an issue.
Do you expect to see an increase in power at the same boost levels?
I don’t want to just throw more boost at the car to make power.
The compressor outlet was what I was talking about not turbine outlet. I should have written compressor instead of just turbo.
 
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Do you expect to see an increase in power at the same boost levels?
I don’t want to just throw more boost at the car to make power.
The compressor outlet was what I was talking about not turbine outlet. I should have written compressor instead of just turbo.
Most definitely, that's the whole point of this upgrade and the redesigned production version rather than our version 1 prototype. If it did not, it wouldn't be efficient. As for the compressor inlet, though it is stock location, the inlet is larger than factory and will not pose as a restriction at these power levels.
 

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Most definitely, that's the whole point of this upgrade and the redesigned production version rather than our version 1 prototype. If it did not, it wouldn't be efficient. As for the compressor inlet, though it is stock location, the inlet is larger than factory and will not pose as a restriction at these power levels.
I said outlet not inlet. I do appreciate the quick response but my concern is dealing with the outlet at higher than factory rev limit. Long term I’m looking to build the engine for higher rpm. I’m hoping someone makes camshaft upgrade eventually.
the factory outlet has an odd angle and adds an extension to connect. I know efr7163 only uses a 2” outlet and it’s my understanding the td04 has a 1.9” outlet. Now I know opening it up might increase flow but if I’m correct at a cost to responsiveness. It’s my understanding they are usually smaller to increase air velocity and that helps with transient response.
the area and extension pipe I’m talking about is attached and circled in a photo. I know inlet diameter is more critical than outlet but is there any benefit to an increase in size for the outlet pipe pictured number 8 that I circled.
Honda Civic 10th gen PRL Motorsports P600 Honda Civic Type-R FK8 Drop-In Turbocharger Upgrade Development 5E8E0FD1-BF80-4309-9ECB-F46E3A140749
 
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I said outlet not inlet. I do appreciate the quick response but my concern is dealing with the outlet at higher than factory rev limit. Long term I’m looking to build the engine for higher rpm. I’m hoping someone makes camshaft upgrade eventually.
the factory outlet has an odd angle and adds an extension to connect. I know efr7163 only uses a 2” outlet and it’s my understanding the td04 has a 1.9” outlet. Now I know opening it up might increase flow but if I’m correct at a cost to responsiveness. It’s my understanding they are usually smaller to increase air velocity and that helps with transient response.
the area and extension pipe I’m talking about is attached and circled in a photo. I know inlet diameter is more critical than outlet but is there any benefit to an increase in size for the outlet pipe pictured number 8 that I circled.
5E8E0FD1-BF80-4309-9ECB-F46E3A140749.jpeg
Ah, my apologies. There should be no reason for concern with the factory outlet; these cars are not and will never feasibly be high revving, and this diameter is still not a restriction at the power levels this turbocharger is capable of producing. Even if a camshaft were produced for this platform, it will still not be able to rev super high due to DI pump, oil pump, etc, not to mention that the single port cylinder head will eventually be a choke point. We're seeing this firsthand with our 1.5T while testing Bisimoto's camshafts in our 1.5T Civic.

Yes, typically the compressor outlet and charge piping routing/design are critical in transient response. However, our options are limited when working with keeping things 100% factory location. To properly increase/adjust size at the outlet would warrant for an entire compressor cover redesign, which we did not wish to do, especially for minimal, if any, gains. If we were to offer a cast outlet piece, we would need to manufacture and supply another hose and component to our kit. Keep in mind that the GT/GTX 30R's we use in our 8th/9th Gen Turbo Kits utilize cast, 2.00" OD (which ID is significantly smaller due to the cast aluminum wall thickness), and still pump out well over 600 whp, revving much higher than the FK8 CT-R platform does.
 


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I’m sorry for the noobish questions below @PRL, but I’m really hoping you can give me some insight.
Currently an owner of a 2.0T 2018 Accord, setup with Hondata Stage 2. Once this turbo comes out, realistically, what other parts from you guys do you suggest we get to achieve the best performance/stability ratio?

After reading some comments here, I’ve seen that realistically you only need a downpipe/intake? I follow Joel Felix (Who’s set a 12.44sec 1/4 on his accord), and he currently has the following:

- OEM Honda Civic Type-R FK8 Turbo & Turbo Inlet Pipe
- KTuner V2
- PRL Motorsports High Volume Intake System
- PRL Motorsports Flex Fuel Kit
- PRL Motorsports Intercooler
- RV6 Downpipe
- PRL Motorsports Front Pipe
- PRL Motorsports Oil Cap + 25hp

Will all these additional parts just add onto the power, or isn’t really necessary after this new P600 comes out? I appreciate your time and effort! I’m just a guy learning all things tuning, and currently trying to setup a budget, so I’m trying to understand and only obtain the essentials for best performance/stability :)

Thank you!
 
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I’m sorry for the noobish questions below @PRL, but I’m really hoping you can give me some insight.
Currently an owner of a 2.0T 2018 Accord, setup with Hondata Stage 2. Once this turbo comes out, realistically, what other parts from you guys do you suggest we get to achieve the best performance/stability ratio?

After reading some comments here, I’ve seen that realistically you only need a downpipe/intake? I follow Joel Felix (Who’s set a 12.44sec 1/4 on his accord), and he currently has the following:

- OEM Honda Civic Type-R FK8 Turbo & Turbo Inlet Pipe
- KTuner V2
- PRL Motorsports High Volume Intake System
- PRL Motorsports Flex Fuel Kit
- PRL Motorsports Intercooler
- RV6 Downpipe
- PRL Motorsports Front Pipe
- PRL Motorsports Oil Cap + 25hp

Will all these additional parts just add onto the power, or isn’t really necessary after this new P600 comes out? I appreciate your time and effort! I’m just a guy learning all things tuning, and currently trying to setup a budget, so I’m trying to understand and only obtain the essentials for best performance/stability :)

Thank you!
Theoretically if you have the Type-R Turbo setup on your Accord this should be a drop-in replacement option. This has not been confirmed yet, but we will be confirming this and/or telling customers what else may be needed in addition to the Type-R turbo swap.

What additional parts should you tack onto that setup? Definitely the Oil cap, it's actually worth 30+ that's where the real gains are lol. That list above is a great setup and will compliment everything as a whole, highly recommend doing all of that in addition to the P600. Engine Management, Intake, Downpipe, Frontpipe, FF Kit, Intercooler, Custom tune once everything is done. The only things in addition to that would be some engine mounts and a proper suspension, wheel and tire setup.
 

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Theoretically if you have the Type-R Turbo setup on your Accord this should be a drop-in replacement option. This has not been confirmed yet, but we will be confirming this and/or telling customers what else may be needed in addition to the Type-R turbo swap.

What additional parts should you tack onto that setup? Definitely the Oil cap, it's actually worth 30+ that's where the real gains are lol. That list above is a great setup and will compliment everything as a whole, highly recommend doing all of that in addition to the P600. Engine Management, Intake, Downpipe, Frontpipe, FF Kit, Intercooler, Custom tune once everything is done. The only things in addition to that would be some engine mounts and a proper suspension, wheel and tire setup.
Thank you for your reply! I’m looking forward to additional information once you release the turbo. Lol the oil cap - yeah I just copied pasted that in from Joels post. But thank you for all that info. I have a few additional questions,

- Transmission loads. Assuming all the mods discussed are installed, is there any long term risk I’d need to worry about? Since the new turbo is rated for 600hp, I just want to make sure I’m taking every precaution to ensure the longevity of my 10speed trans.
- Per your site, I saw eibach springs and different coilovers. I’d assume coilovers would be a better choice correct, given all these mods? I’m still in the process of deciding whether or not to keep stock 19” wheels, or go to 20s and just want to get the best/most comfortable option.

Thanks!
 

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@PRL Motorsports What limitations have you seen on the stock Internals? I know they are forged, however I want to know what your R&D has shown without issues of bent rods etc. I've heard from various sources 450-500 with no issues, and I've also heard others having issues at that range with the stock internals. That's why I'm parked at where I am but obviously pushing over 400+ on both fronts, I could push more from my set-up but I haven't done an engine build yet and from my research says it’s really the low end torque that’s the main concern of how high it’s pushed. Any R&D advice on this topic would be most appreciated as the quality of the tune can be a large factor pushing a lot of power thru.

This is dual tune full E85 & dotted line is 93 pump.

Honda Civic 10th gen PRL Motorsports P600 Honda Civic Type-R FK8 Drop-In Turbocharger Upgrade Development 23psi
 
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@PRL Motorsports What limitations have you seen on the stock Internals? I know they are forged, however I want to know what your R&D has shown without issues of bent rods etc. I've heard from various sources 500WHP/450WTQ with no issues, and I've also heard others having issues at that range with the stock internals. That's why I'm parked at 425WHP, I could push more from my set-up but I haven't done an engine build yet. Any R&D advice on this topic would be most appreciated as the quality of the tune can be a large factor pushing a lot of power thru.

This is dual tune full E85 & dotted line is 93 pump.

23psi.jpg
Did you mean 425wtq?
What fuel system are you using to run full E85?
 


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Hondata fuel upgrade kit, and PRL flex fuel kit. You can see my full mods in my profile.
 

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Hondata fuel upgrade kit, and PRL flex fuel kit. You can see my full mods in my profile.
this is a bit of a general response not due red to anyone.
Hondata fuel kit running full e85 will max out the upgraded system on stock turbo. The stock turbo can max out the fuel on just straight 93 octane. E85 requires 30 percent more fuel and hondata fuel system adds only 24 percent. I’m saying this cause you’re not going to get 500 whp using ethanol on a big turbo. You’ll need race gas.

The big question!! as far as your engine question about max hp is less relevant than max torque. Torque bends abreaks rods not HP. Keeping torque under check at 400ftlbs at the wheels seems to be safe. Torque is like actually tension on the engine parts and think if HP as momentum. the scientific explanation is much too complicated for mostto understand. Also the lower the rpm the more tension on parts at the same torque output.
Example 3000 rpm and 400ftplbs vs 4000rpm and 400ftlbs is less actual load per cylinder. It falls under Newton’s law of motion. Object in motion wants to stay in motion example higher rpm and a still object wants to stay still which is lower rpm. There fore lower rpm requires more stress to create the same output. Which tells why moving the power to higher rpm is safer also.
there’s no exact guide line to Hp cause they are too many variables. With the exact same boost levels a more efficient turbo will produce more power. This doesn’t mean there’s more stress on the engine internals.
jist having a bigger flowing exhaust through the turbine housing can free up back pressure between the turbo and engine effectively reducing internal load and increasing power. On the other hand the cooler aircharge increases fuel and o2 burn increasing loads. Also this increases cylinder temps due to more burn and pressure which is why bigger turbos won’t make it runcooler.
So far I’ve seen no one blow up on bigger turbo yet!! Only antilag. Those who blew up on stock turbo I’m not even sure how they did it without upgrading fuel.m system.
Keep your torque in check you’ll keep it longer but no guarantee.
nice seen big numbers stock engine but the most I’ve heard of long term was 430ftlbs and 465whp. I’ve seen a lot with the 460whp but not usually over 415ftlbs.
 

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this is a bit of a general response not due red to anyone.
Hondata fuel kit running full e85 will max out the upgraded system on stock turbo. The stock turbo can max out the fuel on just straight 93 octane. E85 requires 30 percent more fuel and hondata fuel system adds only 24 percent. I’m saying this cause you’re not going to get 500 whp using ethanol on a big turbo. You’ll need race gas.

The big question!! as far as your engine question about max hp is less relevant than max torque. Torque bends abreaks rods not HP. Keeping torque under check at 400ftlbs at the wheels seems to be safe. Torque is like actually tension on the engine parts and think if HP as momentum. the scientific explanation is much too complicated for mostto understand. Also the lower the rpm the more tension on parts at the same torque output.
Example 3000 rpm and 400ftplbs vs 4000rpm and 400ftlbs is less actual load per cylinder. It falls under Newton’s law of motion. Object in motion wants to stay in motion example higher rpm and a still object wants to stay still which is lower rpm. There fore lower rpm requires more stress to create the same output. Which tells why moving the power to higher rpm is safer also.
there’s no exact guide line to Hp cause they are too many variables. With the exact same boost levels a more efficient turbo will produce more power. This doesn’t mean there’s more stress on the engine internals.
jist having a bigger flowing exhaust through the turbine housing can free up back pressure between the turbo and engine effectively reducing internal load and increasing power. On the other hand the cooler aircharge increases fuel and o2 burn increasing loads. Also this increases cylinder temps due to more burn and pressure which is why bigger turbos won’t make it runcooler.
So far I’ve seen no one blow up on bigger turbo yet!! Only antilag. Those who blew up on stock turbo I’m not even sure how they did it without upgrading fuel.m system.
Keep your torque in check you’ll keep it longer but no guarantee.
nice seen big numbers stock engine but the most I’ve heard of long term was 430ftlbs and 465whp. I’ve seen a lot with the 460whp but not usually over 415ftlbs.
I realize you were not replying to anyone in general however, I mentioned the low end torque and asked for @PRL Motorsports input on what they have seen in regards to extensive R&D. I'm running 425 torque @4625 and I can push much more with the setup I have. So my question still remains what PRL has seen to be safe levels during R+D. The Hondata Fuel system will support much more than where I am sitting, but I don't want to turn it up just to prove a point I'm looking for answers from someone with extensive R&D experience and data. I would like to know what they would say in regards to torque and max per RPM to maintain a safe level on stock internals. As quoted by HONDATA fuel upgrade system - "Multiple calibrations "*STARTING*" with an increase of 90 lb-ft torque and 57 hp over stock with intercooler and high flow cat." I'm currently running 23 PSI on this map.
 
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I realize you were not replying to anyone in general however, I mentioned the low end torque and asked for @PRL Motorsports input on what they have seen in regards to extensive R&D. I'm running 425 torque @4625 and I can push much more with the setup I have. So my question still remains what PRL has seen to be safe levels during R+D. The Hondata Fuel system will support much more than where I am sitting, but I don't want to turn it up just to prove a point I'm looking for answers from someone with extensive R&D experience and data. I would like to know what they would say in regards to torque and max per RPM to maintain a safe level on stock internals. As quoted by HONDATA fuel upgrade system - "Multiple calibrations "*STARTING*" with an increase of 90 lb-ft torque and 57 hp over stock with intercooler and high flow cat." I'm currently running 23 PSI on this map.
Your still asking an unprovable point. Many people said you blow up on stock turbo in he beginning. They also said 360whp was the limit stock turbo. There’s not enough cars running over 400 hp with any significant mileage put on them after a tune.
Your asking to prove things that aren’t tested in that fashion. All the r&d is only short term. If you’ve built enough cars you’d know general between 25 perfect and 35 percent power increase on typical engines is about it.
W few exceptions like old Toyota Supra and previous k series engines having greater room. The newer coyote motor after 2015 is also put down stupid numbers stock block.
yeah the type r rods are forged but they are small and not made of greatest materials.
no one who tracks the car on courses runs stock motor and turbo upgrade.
I’ve seen people blow up stock cars that should take serious power just from the abuse they put on the car.
What you should be asking is what you want to do with the car.
One thing everyone should do that they really don’t is upgrade the radiator. No matter what way you slice it the hotter you run the shorter an engine lives!! Ultimate racing put down stupid numbers stock block. I could drive that car 60000 miles and never fully get on it and claim it will take kind of power long term So I see where your asking for R&d but you won’t find anyone running stock engine above what you are for any length of time.
Clearly you have a goal in mind. If you want to get answers you need to be specific.
what fuel will you run
What conditions will the car see
What temperature zone do you live in
What altitude will you run the car at.
Is it for track, drag race, or daily driver
What’s your budget
How hard are you on the car
Answering those questions should actually give you your answer to what you should and shouldn’t do.
You could track a car only and burn the stock engine out in 30k miles cause it’s pure abuse.
 

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Why are your randomly on about turbos that I’m not asking about and a radiator I already have? I never asked about budget. I asked for what @PRL Motorsports pushed on the internals during their testing. I have no goal in mind I want to know iif and when they saw any issues. I don’t beat the hell out of my car and that isn’t my question either. It was what did and they observed during their testing. I already read a post from them about them tearing up the stock clutch but they ran it hard when it was already worn. So my question remains are you the owner of PRL or something? Why are you throwing around posts that don’t answer the question I asked someone who tested and manufactured a majority of the performance mods on my car? I didn’t ask for a proven point I asked for their observations while testing. I didn’t say it’s info for me to run, I asked what their experience was, there’s no unproven answer to what they observed under testing at the highest levels pushing the car on stock internals, I guarantee every test they do for R&D is data logged and digested for further improvement or potential issues.
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