1.5T Power Metrics & Limitations for 1.5L Turbo (Non Si models)

varge

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So here are my dyno plots.
My car has a Mishimoto CAI and a Wagner Tuning Intercooler (Tube & Fin type) and I always use RON100 unleaded fuel (kinda close to 93 octane US)
On the one with two plots, dotted is my map1 (stock boost target / tuned ignition & fuel) and solid is my map2 (19psi boost target / tuned ignition & fuel)
Honda Civic 10th gen Power Metrics & Limitations for 1.5L Turbo (Non Si models) Map1-Map2


The other one is my map3 (custom boost map - max 24psi / tuned ignition & fuel)
Honda Civic 10th gen Power Metrics & Limitations for 1.5L Turbo (Non Si models) Map3


Now map1 is an example of how far you can push with the stock boost targets. Wanna keep your turbo forever? Then this is for you! Smooth torque delivery but you hit the wall pretty hard past 5800rpm (stock-a-like). Still a huge improvement over bone stock (+30whp over stock @5600rpm)
Map2 is my favorite and my daily drive. Safe pressure levels (max 19psi), plenty of torque for the casual overtaking, but very low stress on transmission (wanna keep that stock clutch for ages? :) ). Really - really wide powerband from 5000rpm up to 6800, which is ideal if you are going through a twisty mountain road or on the track.
Map3 is balls-out type. Even though the boost map is aggressive, I have avoided the torque spike around 3000rpm and have worked a lot on keeping steady torque for as long as possible. Again, the usable powerband is huge, but VSA tends to show up all the time, even in 3rd at midrange. Still quite well made, so that an acceleration from 0-200km/h does not push k.control further than 0.75 under the greek hot sun and 32+ outside temp and the casual 4th gear pull will not exceed 0.69
 

86salmon

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So on map 3 you're at the roughly 250lb/ft mark people have been limiting at for CVT as well. Thanks for your work. It's fascinating
 

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Those dynoplots looks great. Flat TQ curve through the entire midrange and a great Power plateau, I have to look more into ignition tuning to keep my backend of the power curve up like yours. My power peaks at 5200 and falls of like map1. Running RON 100 and PRL IC so should be able to hit something similar to yours ;-D

Map2 is my favorite and my daily drive. Safe pressure levels (max 19psi), plenty of torque for the casual overtaking, but very low stress on transmission (wanna keep that stock clutch for ages? :) ). Really - really wide powerband from 5000rpm up to 6800, which is ideal if you are going through a twisty mountain road or on the track.
 
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Myx

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So here are my dyno plots.
My car has a Mishimoto CAI and a Wagner Tuning Intercooler (Tube & Fin type) and I always use RON100 unleaded fuel (kinda close to 93 octane US)
On the one with two plots, dotted is my map1 (stock boost target / tuned ignition & fuel) and solid is my map2 (19psi boost target / tuned ignition & fuel)
Map1-Map2.jpg


The other one is my map3 (custom boost map - max 24psi / tuned ignition & fuel)
Map3.jpg


Now map1 is an example of how far you can push with the stock boost targets. Wanna keep your turbo forever? Then this is for you! Smooth torque delivery but you hit the wall pretty hard past 5800rpm (stock-a-like). Still a huge improvement over bone stock (+30whp over stock @5600rpm)
Map2 is my favorite and my daily drive. Safe pressure levels (max 19psi), plenty of torque for the casual overtaking, but very low stress on transmission (wanna keep that stock clutch for ages? :) ). Really - really wide powerband from 5000rpm up to 6800, which is ideal if you are going through a twisty mountain road or on the track.
Map3 is balls-out type. Even though the boost map is aggressive, I have avoided the torque spike around 3000rpm and have worked a lot on keeping steady torque for as long as possible. Again, the usable powerband is huge, but VSA tends to show up all the time, even in 3rd at midrange. Still quite well made, so that an acceleration from 0-200km/h does not push k.control further than 0.75 under the greek hot sun and 32+ outside temp and the casual 4th gear pull will not exceed 0.69

Thank you for providing these plots. Very interesting stuff here. I need to pour over it a day or two to take it all in. I'm sure I'll have some questions.

Have you considered being an E-Tuner? If not, what are you waiting for? :thumbsup:


Edit: Ok...one question. Why do you think your peak power moved from 5600rpm (Maxed tune on stock psi) to 5900rpm (Max tune at 19psi) with no physical changes (Ex: Cams, turbo, etc)? You just increased the boost and made not just more power everywhere but the peak power moved upward by 300rpm. ??? You were able to do this with just a tune and not by moving the whole powerband (Torque curve) to the right by 300rpm (Like a 27Won turbo would do). Thanks!
 
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arnoldo

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So here are my dyno plots.
My car has a Mishimoto CAI and a Wagner Tuning Intercooler (Tube & Fin type) and I always use RON100 unleaded fuel (kinda close to 93 octane US)
On the one with two plots, dotted is my map1 (stock boost target / tuned ignition & fuel) and solid is my map2 (19psi boost target / tuned ignition & fuel)
Map1-Map2.jpg
I'm interested with your 19 PSI dyno plot.

I tried to replicate your suggestion regarding tuned ignition timing.

I advance ignition timing between 1 and 6 degrees over stock.

I dyno the car and the car was making 239 BHP or approx. 204 WHP with lower specs. I used RON 98 with Rev9 Intercooler.

Would you mind sharing how far you advancing the ignition timing?
 


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I'm interested with your 19 PSI dyno plot.

I tried to replicate your suggestion regarding tuned ignition timing.

I advance ignition timing between 1 and 6 degrees over stock.

I dyno the car and the car was making 239 BHP or approx. 204 WHP with lower specs. I used RON 98 with Rev9 Intercooler.

Would you mind sharing how far you advancing the ignition timing?
Where are you at now as far as ignition timing, at what boost and in what gear?
 

arnoldo

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Where are you at now as far as ignition timing, at what boost and in what gear?
Knock Ignition Limit in Hondata Flashpro was adjusted gradually from AIRC 70 to AIRC 240 throughout all RPM. The adjustment between +1 and +6, gradually decreased from AIRC 180.

I asked dyno operator to hear for knock using knock headphone. He will tell me if there is knock in specific AIRC and RPM but there was none. Unfortunately, I didn't datalog and only paid attention to Knock Ignition Limit.

Boost peak was 19 PSI according to boost meter.

I have no experience with KTuner and I cannot translate the setting from Hondata Flashpro to KTuner.
 
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varge

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@Myx : Shifting the powerband on a forced induction system is easy. In effect, the way you use the electronic boost controller (and thus the total airflow) is the logical equivalent of changing the air flow through changes in cams etc, the only difference being that you actually have a lot more control as long as you stay within the turbo efficiency map.

@arnoldo , depending on ambient conditions, I can see 0 degrees of actual advance at 4500 rpm, ramping to 4.5-6 degrees of actual advance around 5500rpm and on at 3rd gear. 4th will give around 1 less degree most of the time. My KC stays fairly steady and bellow 0.8 even on long hard pulls (100-200km/h or similar) but it is a rather aggressive setup and it may be more consistent to push a bit more boost and little less timing, especially since you are running a lower octane fuel (RON98 instead of 100). Also note that AFR will affect performance and proper MAF calibration is essential. Try to keep close to 11.2-11.4 but not leaner. Running rich (10.7 or lower) may cost you quite a few WHP ...
 

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@arnoldo , depending on ambient conditions, I can see 0 degrees of actual advance at 4500 rpm, ramping to 4.5-6 degrees of actual advance around 5500rpm and on at 3rd gear. 4th will give around 1 less degree most of the time. My KC stays fairly steady and bellow 0.8 even on long hard pulls (100-200km/h or similar) but it is a rather aggressive setup and it may be more consistent to push a bit more boost and little less timing, especially since you are running a lower octane fuel (RON98 instead of 100). Also note that AFR will affect performance and proper MAF calibration is essential. Try to keep close to 11.2-11.4 but not leaner. Running rich (10.7 or lower) may cost you quite a few WHP ...
I made adjustment to Knock Ignition Limit in Flashpro reflecting the same result of 0 degrees of actual advance at 4500 RPM ramping up to 3-6 degrees of advance around 5500 RPM. You are correct. I am using 98 RON fuel, which is lower than the fuel octane you used in the first dyno plot. The car is currently making 239 BHP, approx. 203 WHP with 19 PSI.

I still need to observe knock, AFR, and MAF calibration before making further adjustment.
 
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varge

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Just a quick update, that as you may have seen on other posts, I have reached 250whp on a dynapack on full stock exhaust, even with the stock cat in place.
Which is quite solid proof on the initial post, about the stock exhaust not being a restriction for a stock or stock+ turbo, even when pushed to it's limits.
 


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Just a quick update, that as you may have seen on other posts, I have reached 250whp on a dynapack on full stock exhaust, even with the stock cat in place.
Which is quite solid proof on the initial post, about the stock exhaust not being a restriction for a stock or stock+ turbo, even when pushed to it's limits.
how much boost are you pushing on 250whp+ and what are your torque? did u limit the torque level?
 

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Where's the proof a stock exhaust isn't a restriction? I've seen several people going from stock 182hp to 200hp with just a 2.5" exhaust ,everything else stock.
What exhaust ?
 

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I still am very interested if Honda decides to recycle the L15 engine if they did testing with a larger turbo to make well more the 200 hp but intentionally gimped gen 10 to leave a little more on the table for a gen 11 car. We're still a couple years out from knowing. Unless Honda is looking at variable compression or HCCI, I'm not sure what other tricks they have to improve economy on the L-engine for gen 11. I thought the number to reach was 50 mpgs by 2025. We'll have had the Si stuck at ~200 flywheel HP for over 20 years by the time gen 11 hits. I'm not sure where Honda will go next. I imagine they'll target more efficiency before power.
What are your thoughts on this now that the Gen 11's are out? You always have had an interesting insight and thoughts on these things. Was browsing through some old (and new) threads today and just re-read this. :)
 

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What are your thoughts on this now that the Gen 11's are out? You always have had an interesting insight and thoughts on these things. Was browsing through some old (and new) threads today and just re-read this. :)
I thought it was a very safe and low cost move for Honda. They repackaged the same car in a lot of ways and put it back out there and just focused on criticisms. They gave it a good price hike which was inevitable given the markets and inflation and had to remove features to make the Integra more feature rich, comparatively. It’s one of the reasons the Integra/RSX, IMO, died when gen 8 came around and the gen 7-based RSX folded… the nicer badged Acura had nothing over a gen 8 Civic.

I don’t find gen 11 compelling compared to gen 10 like I found gen 10 vs gen 9. I sold my gen 10 nearly a year ago for a profit after 3 years of ownership. It, to this point, is the best all-around DD I’ve had. I wasn’t in love with all the aesthetics of gen 10, and while I do like a few things for gen 11… when I take it all in, I don’t care for the direction overall. I also think the Civic is no longer the bang-for-the-buck deal (at least not the Si that you could easily get OTD prices for under stickered MSRP in 2017-2019 days) it once was. I’m not even sure the car isn’t in an identity crisis. The Fit (which I think is out of production) was more Civic to me than a Civic even in gen 10. The Civic more an Accord… and the Accord looks to be a big-car trading blows with Toyota Avalons-type cars.

It’s a fine car… I’m just not ever going to get one. Even if they cost the same 23k or so I got my Si for… I’m not intrigued enough to go to the dealership and try one. I’m driving my Z and the truck these days to ride out the poor car market which I do think is improving. Eventually I’ll get another car… but I’m out to sea or, when I’m home, working so much relatively close to home, I barely drive as it is. I think my next new purchase will be an Odyssey replacement. Gen 5 of the Odyssey, like gen 11 for the Civic… was a pretty mild refresh and not enough to make me care enough to upgrade. Mine has been paid off for years and at 130k… is just broke in.
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