Overheating at Track...Let me try this again!

AlphaDigital

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Well...good news...kind of.

Road America 75 degrees sunny

With the race louvers hood vent, knockoff Js grill, and back to oem intercooler...overheating is non existant.

Not even running the heater.

Unfortunately it is only 75 degrees today so not a difficult test, although last time it was 72 and I overheated.

I stil cant get the damn LOGR to work so I do not have any numbers for you other than saying the temp gauge did not appear to move at all.

Now that there are no heating issues, I ran the tank to half full and got fuel starvation coming out of the carousel so it set the cel and went into limp mode.

Trying to figure out how to reset cel now before I can go out again...
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Lust

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Well...good news...kind of.

Road America 75 degrees sunny

With the race louvers hood vent, knockoff Js grill, and back to oem intercooler...overheating is non existant.

Not even running the heater.

Unfortunately it is only 75 degrees today so not a difficult test, although last time it was 72 and I overheated.

I stil cant get the damn LOGR to work so I do not have any numbers for you other than saying the temp gauge did not appear to move at all.

Now that there are no heating issues, I ran the tank to half full and got fuel starvation coming out of the carousel so it set the cel and went into limp mode.

Trying to figure out how to reset cel now before I can go out again...
Did you also burp your coolant?

that’s a big difference though. You went from overheating to no movement in the coolant gauge. I take that as a huge win.

Fill the tank and drive around a little. CEL should go away. If not disconnect the battery for 10 mins
 

Eugene_Fk8

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@Lust Do you mind share what to use for coolant? I hear for track it's better to mix the oem coolant with distilled water, but not sure what ratio.
 

Lust

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@Lust Do you mind share what to use for coolant? I hear for track it's better to mix the oem coolant with distilled water, but not sure what ratio.
1gal distilled water
1gal Honda coolant
1 bottle of VP cool down
 

SHIFTT_IX_MR

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JUST A THOUGHT, MY EVO OWNER'S MANUAL SAYS I CAN USE 60/40 COOLANT/WATER MIX, WOULD THIS BE POSSIBLE ON THE TYPE R? AND IF SO, WOULDN'T A HIGHER COOLANT TO WATER RATIO KEEP TEMPS FURTHER DOWN?
 


Dave B

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JUST A THOUGHT, MY EVO OWNER'S MANUAL SAYS I CAN USE 60/40 COOLANT/WATER MIX, WOULD THIS BE POSSIBLE ON THE TYPE R? AND IF SO, WOULDN'T A HIGHER COOLANT TO WATER RATIO KEEP TEMPS FURTHER DOWN?
I think water has a higher specific heat than ethylene glycol or common coolant. The only problem is that it freezes but actually is better at transferring heat than antifreeze.
 

ACUITY

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I think water has a higher specific heat than ethylene glycol or common coolant. The only problem is that it freezes but actually is better at transferring heat than antifreeze.
Correct, something like 70% higher if I recall correctly.

~Russ
 
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dsm_mikey

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Okay...2 days at Road America and I have some feedback on the cooling and the car's performance on track for extended sessions...

For review here is how the car is currently set up:

2021 Honda Civic Type R
-No engine mods
-No tune
BRAKES:
-Raybestos ST43 Pads F&R
-Castrol SRF Brake Fluid
WHEELS/TIRES:
-Enkei TS5 Wheels 18x9.5 +45
-Hankook RS4 Tires 265/35/18
SUSPENSION:
-Front Strut pins pulled
COOLING:
-C&R Racing Track Spec Radiator
-OEM Intercooler (Had a C&R Intercooler installed for the 1st track day-removed it...I think it is too big and inhibits flow to the radiator. I compared it to the OEM and it is massive...and heavy. I do not have any data to back this up other than I ran hot with it installed BEFORE I installed a hood vent and larger grill.)
-Race Louvers Hood Vent added to an OEM hood
-Knockoff Js Racing Front Grill

EVENT INFORMATION:
Road America
Weather: 75 degrees and sunny both days
Best lap I recorded: 2:42.0 (My AIM SOLO 2 DL kept cutting out. I think I had faster laps, but I seriously cannot be sure. The 2:42 was recorded 1st day, 1st session before the fuel starvation issue popped up) Previously I ran a 2:41.9, I know a 2:39xx is definitely possible...next time I guess.

1. I think the engine coolant temp issue is at bay. I do not know for sure because it was only 75 degrees! I went from heating the car up to within 3-4 bars from H on the temp gauge after 2-4 laps to running until I got fuel starvation (More on this later...) from a full tank without the temp gauge moving. Power still seemed down from the out-lap each session, but not as bad when the coolant temp would climb uncontrollably. I added a race louvers hood vent, added an amazon Js racing knockoff front grill and went back to an oem intercooler (from a C&R racing). Temperature was stable throughout my sessions no matter how I drove the car.

2. Fuel starvation is a serious problem in this car. I got maybe 7-9 laps in a session (The sessions were 4 hours green flag so you could run the car out of fuel before you came in.) before I would get to below 3/4 of a tank of fuel. I had fuel starvation for a moment coming out of the carousel at Road America with just under 3/4 a tank of fuel, probably 7-8 laps in (4 mile track), the next lap around I forgot that I had a hesitation and bam...engine lost all power and the dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree. RPM was limited to 3000 rpm. This is so disappointing. You get 20-25 minutes at the most if you are running hard before Fuel Starvation becomes an issue. Once I limped back to the paddock I turned the car off and restarted it. The check engine light stayed on CODE P0087 Fuel Rail / System Pressure Too Low was what caused this. After 4 or 5 drive cycles the code cleared itself and I went back on track very aware of this issue so I never let the fuel level get below 3/4 again...very annoying.

3. BRAKES...Great brakes from the factory fellas, but the fronts get waaaaay too hot without proper venting. This car is absolutely eating front brake pads. Road America is a track that is hard on brakes, but a fresh set of Raybestos ST43's in the front are about 2/3 used up. Car never had a long pedal or lost brakes, but anyone seriously tracking this car needs to be aware of the limitations of the stock set up. The backing plates are turning white and the brakes were smoking after my last session with an abbreviated cool down. We had a similar issue with our race car and when we were able to get the brakes cooled down with proper venting, our pad usage went down by 80%! Bottom line, without venting these front brakes get way too hot and this car will eat brake pads. Not to mention that the extreme heat is not good for anything. I will add pictures of what I am seeing after just 3 days of running the car. The next track day I will put a temp sticker on the front calipers to see how hot they get.

4. It seems to me that even with +R and traction control completely off, the car is pulling power/not giving me power when I ask for it. It is very frustrating...I am used to N/A rwd cars, so that might be part of it. The car definitely understeers and I am getting used to driving a FWD platform vs. RWD. I still prefer RWD cars on track, but the CTR handling is very, very good.

Conclusion:
This car can handle and stop very well for what it is. If you are a novice or only push the car to 80%, you will absolutely love this car. No major issues if you aren't heating up the car or throwing it around much. I think for intermediate to advanced drivers this car will be very frustrating. The car has serious heat problems that must be dealt with if you are going to push this car on the track. The fuel starvation issue is also very frustrating. The front brakes getting hot is not surprising and hopefully the aftermarket will have a bolt on fix soon.

This track event was a David Murry event. Advanced Drivers only and open passing. Great event. The civic was the slowest car by far...Hankook RS4 tires and stock power...most of the cars on track were gutted IMSA/World Challenge race cars. Porsche Cup cars, radicals, etc... Massive power difference, massive grip difference. The car surprised a lot of people with the grip that it does have around the bends with Hankook RS4's and how late you can brake with the stock setup. At the same time it is so disappointing to me because it is so close to a great car. The heating issues, fuel starvation, lack of real temp displays for the coolant, oil pressure, and oil temp (I CANNOT FIGURE OUT LOGR...SO FRUSTRATING), traction control intervention even when off (I think) and the amount of power that is getting pulled while lapping all add up to frustration.

I just don't know how much more effort I want to put in this car. First step if I do keep moving forward, I would need a way to deal with the fuel starvation issue and some type of brake ducting so I can make front brake pads last.

So there you go...my 2 pennies.
 
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AlphaDigital

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Good information Mike, RA definitely seems hard on brakes but its nice to see you were able to get the cooling figured out.

I for one, am interested to see what happens if you were to add an IC back in like the Greddy IC which is tube and fin, and still relatively thin. I wonder if you would notice a difference since you are saying you think the ECU is pulling power. FWIW it would be worthwhile for you to pull a datalog and send it off to your tuner to get feedback.

As far as everything else goes, I feel like if you get 20-25 minutes out of your car you are on the better end of things, because (it might be just me) but that seems like plenty of time for one session before needing to cool off or refuel.

As far as brakes go, I think a handful of people who are tracking hard upgrade to the AP racing set up front, but im sure the chassis could benefit from some ducting to help cool them off.
 

Dave B

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I am coming from a more powerful car as well and am a bit disappointed in the CTRs lack of power, especially when hot but it appears that with your radiator and more aggressive hood louvers, you are getting somewhere. Road America is a real power track and this deficit will really show up there. OTOH, on some slower tracks, I have been able to match my C5 Z06 lap times with just RS4s and neg 2.5 camber because the car handles and brakes so well. One fellow competitor in a time attack series in a BMW M3 used to beat me (and still did recently) but he pointed out that he beat the Corvette in the corners with his BMW and now has to beat me on the straights as the CTR easily handles as well as his significantly upgraded bimmer.

As for the fuel issue, the gauge is crazy inaccurate. It may say 3/4 full but stop for a couple of minutes and the gauge will plummet next time you start the car.

I did not feel that with the long push VSA off in R mode that the car was pulling power when experiencing wheel spin but as IATs and ECTs increase the power decreases. Still a fun car.
 


metal_driver

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dsm_mikey, do you think Titanium brake shims would help you out at all?

I also wonder what Honda Performance Development (HPD) did in terms of their
- HPD brake cooling inlet ducts for the Type R TC..
https://hpd.honda.com/Articles/Touring/TypeR

Honda Civic 10th gen Overheating at Track...Let me try this again! 1630811060830


I know the fog lights are very easy to remove. Maybe additional brake cooling duct hose could be fitted behind the fog light and directed towards the front brakes for additional cooling...
 

b2point0h

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Great feedback, thanks @dsm_mikey! We do have stock brake ducts, but they are not a true track setup with a properly diverted tube and rotor backing plate. I believe the TCR car has these.

As for the fueling issue, this is just something we have to deal with as the car has a small tank. Not a big deal on 20-25 min sessions. Gives the car time to cool as well.

Ti shims will help temps on the pads and rotors, at a cost of putting that heat elsewhere, which goes into the caliper and eats seals. So watch your seals.
 

QuasarMotors

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Great feedback, thanks @dsm_mikey! We do have stock brake ducts, but they are not a true track setup with a properly diverted tube and rotor backing plate. I believe the TCR car has these.

As for the fueling issue, this is just something we have to deal with as the car has a small tank. Not a big deal on 20-25 min sessions. Gives the car time to cool as well.

Ti shims will help temps on the pads and rotors, at a cost of putting that heat elsewhere, which goes into the caliper and eats seals. So watch your seals.
I thought the Ti shims where to save your caliper seals more?
 

Dave B

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Ti shims will help temps on the pads and rotors, at a cost of putting that heat elsewhere, which goes into the caliper and eats seals. So watch your seals.
If titanium transmits heat poorly, your statement makes no sense. It is the pad and the rotor that will run hotter and hopefully the caliper will be a bit cooler meaning your seals will be at least a bit protected. Also by running the rotor a bit hotter, the delta between the incoming and outgoing air will be higher which is actually going to be a bit more efficient.
 

b2point0h

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If titanium transmits heat poorly, your statement makes no sense. It is the pad and the rotor that will run hotter and hopefully the caliper will be a bit cooler meaning your seals will be at least a bit protected. Also by running the rotor a bit hotter, the delta between the incoming and outgoing air will be higher which is actually going to be a bit more efficient.
You're right, I worded that wrong. Ti shims, or any shims for that matter, will help reduce the heat transfer to the caliper & seals, and will help reduce the possibility of boiling the fluid. If NOT using shims, the heat will go straight to the caliper and seals. Using the Ti shims will keep the heat at the pad and rotor, which also isn't great. Best solution will be proper cooling ducts to keep fresh cool air going to all parts.
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