Overheating at Track...Let me try this again!

Yomny

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Really looking forward to how this will turn out.
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KB3_FK8

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Okay...here we go.

I purchased a 2021 Honda Civic Type R with the idea of cutting down consumables cost at HPDE events. I also have a 2016 Mustang GT350R that I love to track. Couple problems...it goes through tires (roughly $1800 per set) and brakes ($550 per set) in one weekend. In addition, the cost to insure it for a weekend is around $400. So...roughly $2750 just in consumables every weekend not including the cost of the track time.

With the Civic Type R I am looking to cut these costs by a huge amount. One set of $800 tires per YEAR, 2 Sets of $350 pads per YEAR. Yeah it won't be as fast, but that's ok with me.

I took some pre-emptive steps with the CTR before I took it to the track for the first time.
-Bought & Installed a C&R Track spec Radiator
-Bought & Installed a C&R Intercooler
-Added 18x9.5 +45 Enkei TS-5 Wheels w/ 265/35/18 Hankook RS4 Tires
-Added Raybestos ST43 F&R brake pads
-Added Castrol SRF Brake Fluid
-No other modifications/tunes/etc...

I had posted on another thread the issues I had at my first track day with this car. I had some issues...
Location: Road America Elkhart Lake, WI (Lap Length: 4.048 Miles)
Temperature: 72 Degrees, overcast
Tires Used: 265/35/18 Hankook RS4 w/ Enkei 18x9.5 +45 wheels
Brake Pads: Raybestos ST43 F&R w/ SRF Fluid
Alignment specs: Front Pins Pulled, everything else stock
Mods:
1. C&R Track Spec Radiator
2. C&R Intercooler
No Other mods
Lap Time: 2:41.9 w/ overheating issues

Overview:

My first session out I did not have the heater on because I assumed with the C&R radiator and intercooler I was good to go! I figured out by the second lap that I may have issues...the temp gauge started to rise and the power felt like it was getting pulled. By the 3rd lap the temp gauge was close to 3/4 and power was getting pulled a lot. By the 4th lap I think I was 4 or 5 bars away from H and power was REALLY pulled.

Needless to say I was very disappointed with this!

The next session out I had the heater full on w the AC off. The temp seemed to rise slower and never got as hot, but the power was getting pulled significantly by the second lap. Example...going into turn 5 on the warm-up lap I could hit 131-132 entering the braking zone, by lap 2 it was 125-ish even braking later. As the car got hotter it would slow even more.

I was disappointed with overheating issues, yes. I was not disappointed with how the car handled especially considering the Hankook RS4 tire which are not very sticky tires, but they wear like iron. I was able to sustain 86-87 mph around the carousel...this is a great number considering no suspension mods and RS4 tires! The car can handle and brake extremely well and it makes me want to sort these heating issues asap.

I have been told by others on the forum that this is not normal and there must be something wrong.

Remember, I am having these issues at only 72 degrees ambient temperature!

Here are the steps I will be taking to make sure the car will be able to make full power without overheating for full 20-30 minute track sessions:

1. I am pulling the front bumper off the car and checking to make sure that all radiator ducting is in place and that it is boxed in properly.
2. Vacuum bleeding the radiator to make sure there is no air in the system.
3. Removing C&R Intercooler and replacing with the OEM intercooler. If I can keep the car cool, then I will look at reinstalling this. The car is pulling so much power it has to be due to engine cooling (Ecu pulling boost/timing), not hot intake air (intercooler). If the C&R intercooler is blocking even a little bit more air than the oem intercooler-it needs to go!
4. Adding a vented hood. I am cutting a stock hood and adding the large Race Louvers brand hood vent.
5. Will RE-SEND with these updated parts and see how it does. I would also like to add an aftermarket oil cooler if these above changes do not have a drastic effect on how the car cools.

Am I missing anything? Any other ideas?

I am very concerned because I had these overheat issues when it was only 72 degrees outside. Road America is a very fast track with 3 large straights that should be able to cool the car sufficiently. I really hope I find an issue I missed when I pull the front bumper cover. Either way, I will be pulling the C&R intercooler and changing back to OEM until the car can stay cool and produce full power throughout a 20-30 minute session.
I just have a PRL rad on my 2017 and I have had zero issues overheating. I did after about 10 or so laps at my local with the stock set up though. Another point is I just started tracking with this car so I know I am not even as close as you are to pushing the car to the limits.
 

alejandroads123

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I am going back and forth about whether to remove the C&R intercooler and go back to the oem intercooler along with the other changes I will be making before the next event.

-Currently have installed and had overheating issues at the last HPDE event (72 degrees ambient temp at Road America 4.048 Mile track)
1. C&R Track radiator (Leaving Installed)
2. C&R Intercooler (Considering removing and going back to oem)

-Changes before next event:
1. Race louvers hood vent added to a replacement oem hood.
2. Larger aftermarket center grill
3. Removing C&R intercooler and going back to oem until coolant temps are not rising when pushing the car on track.

I figure I can always (and hope to) add the C&R intercooler back into the mix after temperatures are completely under control.

What is everyone's opinion on this?
-Keep the C&R intercooler with the other changes above OR go back to OEM intercooler until temps are successfully managed throughout a complete session (20-30 minutes)?
1) I would change that intercooler the C&R , and get something with decent volume but not exaggerated big, get the Mishimoto Intercooler, this way you at least keep the post Intercooler IAT low and this prevent to transfer heat from the intercooler to the bottom of the radiator.
2) Get the acuity reverse hoses, those hoses really helps to drop a few degrees .

3) try to heat wrap the water pipping from the water pump to the thermostat assembly, the one run behind the turbocharger , also downpipe blanket if you are running aftermarket downpipe if not get aftermarket catless if is possible, and get it heat wrapped or better downpipe blanket and downpipe elbow. Obviously get the turbo blanket and get rid of the all OEM heat shied .

4) Get a dual oil cooler , try to install on each side for best flow.
5) Get open wide front grille and also make sure to do proper ducting for direct the air flow trough the radiator and not at the sides .

6) Vented hood, or install louvers in to oem hood.

7) check the tuning , if you're running oem get a custom.


All this should help, each mod do slightly improvements but the overall does the difference.
 

Fredo

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Has it been discussed already to remove the air-con? The LE shouldn't have any overheating issues.
And I've just learned today from a guy that tunes and tracks CTRs that removing the air-con solves the overheating problem "sustainably".
 

alejandroads123

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Has it been discussed already to remove the air-con? The LE shouldn't have any overheating issues.
And I've just learned today from a guy that tunes and tracks CTRs that removing the air-con solves the overheating problem "sustainably".
Removing the AC condenser probably do a good difference, but if this is not a dedicated track car at lest in Florida is imposible to drive the car without AC .
 

AlphaDigital

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Has it been discussed already to remove the air-con? The LE shouldn't have any overheating issues.
And I've just learned today from a guy that tunes and tracks CTRs that removing the air-con solves the overheating problem "sustainably".

Many people (myself included) drive their cars on the street, so having AC is nice. I think everyone is trying to find that happy medium before needing to go the route of removing the condenser.
 
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dsm_mikey

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Many people (myself included) drive their cars on the street, so having AC is nice. I think everyone is trying to find that happy medium before needing to go the route of removing the condenser.
Agreed...keeping AC for the family!
 

Gansan

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Has it been discussed already to remove the air-con? The LE shouldn't have any overheating issues.
And I've just learned today from a guy that tunes and tracks CTRs that removing the air-con solves the overheating problem "sustainably".
I have no doubt that removing the a/c would help tremendously. That takes me back to when I was younger and tracking my 97 Integra Type R which for the first year came with no a/c (it was a dealer installed option). This was in the California desert summer heat plus occasionally Las Vegas. It helped that it wasn't my daily driver. Pouring water down the front of my shirt and windows down was the only way I survived.
 

Dave B

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No overheating issues on my setup even with bolt ons and a tune. Peak ECT was 235. IATs were more of a detriment than ECT sadly.
Interesting what you pick up by re-reading a thread. We have 2 separate heat issues with the car other than potentially getting into "limp" mode. One is that the engine gets hot and starts pulling power as the ECTs increase. The other is the loss of power from increasing IATs. There seem to be multiple ways to at least partially lower the ECTs but IATs seem more difficult to drop and don't seem to drop in concert with engine temps.

IMO, the added cooling power of oil coolers which are small and not in areas of great airflow (venting into a high pressure wheel well is hardly ideal) would be much smaller than going to a a bigger and more efficient radiator unless you are worried about crazy high oil temps themselves.
 

Lust

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Interesting what you pick up by re-reading a thread. We have 2 separate heat issues with the car other than potentially getting into "limp" mode. One is that the engine gets hot and starts pulling power as the ECTs increase. The other is the loss of power from increasing IATs. There seem to be multiple ways to at least partially lower the ECTs but IATs seem more difficult to drop and don't seem to drop in concert with engine temps.

IMO, the added cooling power of oil coolers which are small and not in areas of great airflow (venting into a high pressure wheel well is hardly ideal) would be much smaller than going to a a bigger and more efficient radiator unless you are worried about crazy high oil temps themselves.
In order of importance coolant > oil > intake air temps. All modern turbo cars seem to have a problem keeping charge temps down. IATs will reduce power but it won’t stop you from running on a track all day. Overheating your coolant is just bad overall and should be the primary concern over IATs imo. I myself am at I point now where I’m happy with the coolant temps and can work on maintaining the cars peak power for an entire session
 

Dave B

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In order of importance coolant > oil > intake air temps. All modern turbo cars seem to have a problem keeping charge temps down. IATs will reduce power but it won’t stop you from running on a track all day. Overheating your coolant is just bad overall and should be the primary concern over IATs imo. I myself am at I point now where I’m happy with the coolant temps and can work on maintaining the cars peak power for an entire session
I am absolutely sure you are correct about coolant temps being most important. Oil temps are a bit of a mystery as without a real oil temp reading and without knowing what the Honda engineers were thinking, we don't know what sort of max oil temp is ok and what isn't. I do know that for the Nissan 370 (which apparently does have a real oil temp sensor) they go into limp mode at oil temps of 280 and for tracking, you will need an oil cooler. On the contrary, C5Z06 Corvettes withstand oil temps of 300F with generally no ill effects. We also don't know if keeping ECT low enough, the oil temps will follow although one would assume so. As mentioned elsewhere, the addition of a Trackspec vent on my stock engined car has allowed ECTs to stay reasonable and come down very quickly when backing off but oil temps according to LogR take a lot longer to drop.

As for IAT, I compete in the Ontario Time-Attack series Ontario Time Attack where the loss of power from increasing IATs becomes more important. Agree that for HPDE and lapping, the loss of power is irritating but won't ruin the day.
 
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dsm_mikey

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Well...good news...kind of.

Road America 75 degrees sunny

With the race louvers hood vent, knockoff Js grill, and back to oem intercooler...overheating is non existant.

Not even running the heater.

Unfortunately it is only 75 degrees today so not a difficult test, although last time it was 72 and I overheated.

I stil cant get the damn LOGR to work so I do not have any numbers for you other than saying the temp gauge did not appear to move at all.

Now that there are no heating issues, I ran the tank to half full and got fuel starvation coming out of the carousel so it set the cel and went into limp mode.

Trying to figure out how to reset cel now before I can go out again...
 
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