Oil dillution letter

oldjackbob

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All of this only has any consequences if this lawsuit is won in court. I predict it will lose, so it's just a piece of printed paper.
On what do you base your prediction? The defect is a valid one and is thoroughly documented. Due to the type of engine (direct injection), under certain operating conditions raw gasoline is sprayed onto the cylinder walls and drains down past the piston rings into the crankcase. The problem is exacerbated by the extended oil change interval as dictated by the ECU. And Honda is aware of the problem, as evidenced by the recall bulletin.

I have taken my own 2016 Civic to my personal mechanic and watched as he drained a full gallon of fluid (completely filling a one gallon bucket) from the oil pan during one oil change. Keep in mind, there is only 3.7 quarts of oil called for in the book, including what's in the filter. So I know I was getting fuel in my oil (my mechanic is a witness and I have pictures to present as evidence in court). And that oil smelled very strongly of gasoline. That's when I decided to start changing my oil every 3333 mile (3 times every 10K miles) just to eliminate any possibility of the oil ever getting too diluted.

So I repeat my question - on what do you base your prediction that the lawsuit will lose?



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Gruber

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On what do you base your prediction? The defect is a valid one and is thoroughly documented. Due to the type of engine (direct injection), under certain operating conditions raw gasoline is sprayed onto the cylinder walls and drains down past the piston rings into the crankcase. The problem is exacerbated by the extended oil change interval as dictated by the ECU. And Honda is aware of the problem, as evidenced by the recall bulletin.

I have taken my own 2016 Civic to my personal mechanic and watched as he drained a full gallon of fluid (completely filling a one gallon bucket) from the oil pan during one oil change. Keep in mind, there is only 3.7 quarts of oil called for in the book, including what's in the filter. So I know I was getting fuel in my oil (my mechanic is a witness and I have pictures to present as evidence in court). And that oil smelled very strongly of gasoline. That's when I decided to start changing my oil every 3333 mile (3 times every 10K miles) just to eliminate any possibility of the oil ever getting too diluted.

So I repeat my question - on what do you base your prediction that the lawsuit will lose?
The real question is on what basis do you hope they could win? They will lose, because the lawyers and their experts will not be even close to be able to prove that any damage is done. And Honda already offered extended warranty in case anyone would have an issue. Where are the owners with prematurely worn out engines? Courts don't work on the basis of scenarios and someone's imagination, but damages. How much money have you lost because of this problem? Case dismissed. What do you want to get from Honda for finding 0.3 q excess oil in your engine beyond what they already offered? :rolleyes:

The owners manual (of any car) already recommends that the owner check the oil level "every time you refuel." And they also said the oil change intervals should be shortened regardless of MM if you see higher than acceptable levels. They also said (like any other DI manufacturer) that some excess is acceptable, and no expert will be able to prove that it is not.

Most likely, they might sue for what Honda has already promised, then take the fees and buy themselves new boats.
 
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SpringRubber

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Long post

I trust we all can agree that technical / engineering questions about oil dilution won’t be fully answered by some lawsuit.

The letter I received gives details about the proposed settlement. You can treat that as either both sides WIN or both sides LOSE. (And in either view -- and as noted by a number of posters-- the lawyers always will be paid. Per the notice,they'll be paid nte $850K split across 3 firms. Also $3K to each of the plaintiffs.)

Over the years I’ve received maybe a dozen notices like this and usually I’ve considered them as found money. For my hatch in the US (and, specifically, in Virginia which is not one of the 13 states receiving the product update, i.e. a PUD vehicle), Honda is agreeing to step-up and double the power-train warranty from 3 yrs, limited by mileage, to 6 yrs with unlimited mileage, for a failure caused by oil dilution.

It’s a win in my book because the price I paid for my hatch was for a 3 yr warranty. Anything beyond 3 yrs is gravy, pure and simple. In my mind, Honda is thinking, NP we’ll double the warranty period for that issue because problems won’t occur—or, as a lawyer friend I worked with for many years would say: this is just sleeves out of our vest.

As for oil dilution: yep, I have it. My oil shows at top of orange trapezoid, but not up onto the metal.

The actual legal complaint is here:

https://www.settlement-claims.com/OilDilution/CourtDocuments.html

It’s ironic, only one of these vehicles in the class action lawsuit are in the North.

Northern climate by Fath: something failed at 5,200km and car entered limp mode

Southern LA by Bautista: 13K miles and loud ticking and broken camshaft – maybe by plastic?

Atlanta GA by Hamilton: oil level shows overfull but no actual damages
Which is why I'm thinking of excluding myself from this.
U have some sort of 7 yr plan – pls note that my post has nothing to do with that YMMV
 

StevenGregory

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All of this only has any consequences if this lawsuit is won in court. I predict it will lose, so it's just a piece of printed paper.

But on second thought, these lawyers set the bar so low, that Honda will gladly settle for what they were already giving anyway, and as usual, no one will get anything out of it but the lawyers.
Amen!
 

Axatax

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Around 2003, I bought $15.00 worth of electrolytic capacitors from DigiKey for some project that I don't even recall what it was about.

I get notices regarding a class-action lawsuit pertaining to these capacitors at least several times per year. The whole thing is just silly, IMHO. Just the cost of the postage alone have exceeded the cost of those capacitors.

This isn't to minimize anyones problems with these cars - this is just to illustrate how absurd some of these class-action suits can be.
 

MaxPower

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Lol, "case dismissed"?

You sure assume a lot.

We'll see.
How are the plaintiffs going to prove that actual, quantifiable damage has actually been done? This is the real question. Do you think that's going to be easily provable in court?
 

SpringRubber

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This isn't to minimize anyones problems with these cars - this is just to illustrate how absurd some of these class-action suits can be.
:thumbsup:
Totally agree -- but know that companies hate class action lawsuits because while it can be a small amount per person it can be a big amount to the company.

Recent example: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02/tech/apple-lawsuit-settlement-slow-batteries/index.html

Every single one of my credit card companies require that any dispute be held via arbitration -- because they fear class action lawsuits. The big guy normally wants to fight the small guys one at a time -- not as a group. i.e. the class. And one way to do that is to contractually get us folks to agree to use arbitration, instead of the courts.

These days when I see the acronym of AAA I unfortunately think of the American Arbitration Association first and the auto club second.

Given all the info about oil dilution (vice excessive oil dilution), the 3 people the lawyers used in the complaint makes no sense to me. I agree with @Gruber that a court decision would be for Honda. Meanwhile -- I'll take the added warranty. (And monitor and change my oil and see what happens.) Peace all.
 

darkness975

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I tend to get my oil changed between 4K - 5K as a habit. I've always done that with my cars even before I owned a CivicX.

What I seem to be taking away from this is I should continue doing this practice, or even drop it to having it changed every 3K like the cliche "yee olde times" or else I risk my car becoming a $20,000.00 paperweight.

Is this correct? This issue is inevitable and will affect us all?
 

NonyaBisness

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What really gets me with this, it says in this letter that their fix it update for this issue is only for those in cold weather states,and mentions new New Jersey, and PA.
I live right next to those states and this was one of the mildest winter's we have had in a while, but there still were times when it was 28 degrees out and a lot of times 35 or below. That's cold in case the idiots at Honda can't tell.
I also could of sworn that members on here from MD said they got the letter for the update.
this is my issue, why do only certain states get the software update, i'm fine with them not doing an oil change for free, but damn basic software updates should be standard and should be free regardless the state, it gets damn cold in most parts of the country and this damn car takes 5+ minutes of driving to get where you can turn the heat on without cooling off the damn motor when it's at or near freezing temps, a HVAC software update to allow the engine to warm up is something we ALL need.
 

NonyaBisness

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I tend to get my oil changed between 4K - 5K as a habit. I've always done that with my cars even before I owned a CivicX.

What I seem to be taking away from this is I should continue doing this practice, or even drop it to having it changed every 3K like the cliche "yee olde times" or else I risk my car becoming a $20,000.00 paperweight.

Is this correct? This issue is inevitable and will affect us all?
ultimately it depends, do you do a lot of short trips and/or drive in extreme cold weather without given the engine time to reach full operating temp A LOT, do you see your oil is overfilled when you check it, does you oil smell of gasoline when you check it, if your answer is no then you don't need to overly increase your OCI. you could mitigate it further by installing a block heater if you do live in an area with extreme cold weather.
 

Gruber

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Around 2003, I bought $15.00 worth of electrolytic capacitors from DigiKey for some project that I don't even recall what it was about.

I get notices regarding a class-action lawsuit pertaining to these capacitors at least several times per year. The whole thing is just silly, IMHO. Just the cost of the postage alone have exceeded the cost of those capacitors.

This isn't to minimize anyones problems with these cars - this is just to illustrate how absurd some of these class-action suits can be.
:thumbsup:
Totally agree -- but know that companies hate class action lawsuits because while it can be a small amount per person it can be a big amount to the company.

Recent example: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02/tech/apple-lawsuit-settlement-slow-batteries/index.html

Every single one of my credit card companies require that any dispute be held via arbitration -- because they fear class action lawsuits. The big guy normally wants to fight the small guys one at a time -- not as a group. i.e. the class. And one way to do that is to contractually get us folks to agree to use arbitration, instead of the courts.

These days when I see the acronym of AAA I unfortunately think of the American Arbitration Association first and the auto club second.

Given all the info about oil dilution (vice excessive oil dilution), the 3 people the lawyers used in the complaint makes no sense to me. I agree with @Gruber that a court decision would be for Honda. Meanwhile -- I'll take the added warranty. (And monitor and change my oil and see what happens.) Peace all.
I'm not against class action law suits: without them some vendors/businesses would be able to get away with cheating on small things, because no one would be able to sue them for $20. Also, it makes it quite different when it's know that the product is defective because many customers have have same problem.

I wish there was at the time a lawsuit against Mazda for breaking door handles. They were obviously defective and I spend several hundred $$ on repairs and then hours of time to repair them by myself. And that's after having one or two repaired on warranty. Mazda could have redesigned the handles after the problem was known, but they didn't bother and kept selling the defective parts. Plenty of third party manufacturers (China) sold cheap copies. The problem was that the replacement was not a 5 minute job. It would not be a big deal for Mazda to redesign and let someone manufacture this kind of thing, but Mazda didn't.

Also, I got some $5 or $15 checks from some lawsuits for some capacitors and other things I bought like 10 years ago. In other cases they required a proof of purchase, and I didn't bother.

In this case though, beyond an extended warranty on specific kind of damage, I don't see any possible benefits. A car can't be warrantied forever. No car maker will guarantee that a car won't fall apart at 150,000 miles or after 10 years. And, it's rather unlikely that any significant number of 1.5T Hondas besides a few odd cases will have any issues related to oil dilution before then. From the legal point of view it's just not enough to say "the oil is thinner, so the engine must be wearing out, so this could be a problem sometime in the future."
 
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finch

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On what do you base your prediction? The defect is a valid one and is thoroughly documented. Due to the type of engine (direct injection), under certain operating conditions raw gasoline is sprayed onto the cylinder walls and drains down past the piston rings into the crankcase. The problem is exacerbated by the extended oil change interval as dictated by the ECU. And Honda is aware of the problem, as evidenced by the recall bulletin.

I have taken my own 2016 Civic to my personal mechanic and watched as he drained a full gallon of fluid (completely filling a one gallon bucket) from the oil pan during one oil change. Keep in mind, there is only 3.7 quarts of oil called for in the book, including what's in the filter. So I know I was getting fuel in my oil (my mechanic is a witness and I have pictures to present as evidence in court). And that oil smelled very strongly of gasoline. That's when I decided to start changing my oil every 3333 mile (3 times every 10K miles) just to eliminate any possibility of the oil ever getting too diluted.

So I repeat my question - on what do you base your prediction that the lawsuit will lose?

you do realize that 4 qts = 1 gal and most shops do just throw the whole 4 qts in
I myself change the oil filter every oil change and the intervals are 3-4k
 

darkness975

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ultimately it depends, do you do a lot of short trips and/or drive in extreme cold weather without given the engine time to reach full operating temp A LOT, do you see your oil is overfilled when you check it, does you oil smell of gasoline when you check it, if your answer is no then you don't need to overly increase your OCI. you could mitigate it further by installing a block heater if you do live in an area with extreme cold weather.
I walk to work.

I mostly use the car after work and on weekends. I try to not just make short trips, I prefer the temperature meter to be up to temp the way it is supposed to be. Sometimes I do make some short trips but overall I try to at least drive long enough for the operating temperature to get to where it should be.

I rarely check the oil to be honest. My mechanic has never told me he smells gas in the oil, but I can ask him to check that from now on during oil changes and I would be able to examine that with him too (local garages FTW). I tend to change it between 4 - 5 K, regardless of what the MM says.

Can't use a block heater where I am. Apartment life and all.

That's the thing though, this should not even be a concern. You're supposed to be able to just drive the car however you do without giving it a second thought.
 

Civics4Ever

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Someone on here, i think Quicksilver, already has over 200,000 miles on his hatch. Don't think it has affected his engine.
 

                           

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