Oh no...Not another BOV thread

[kefi]

@edgeautosport.com the experts on this platform (myself included for the R) don't claim that a BOV will damage your engine in and of itself. Running rich isn't something that usually causes damage. If you want the sounds, go for it - but the customer should be aware that a BOV does mess with how the ECU operates the engine. The issue is that there are many vendors and owners who claim it's perfectly fine and stick their fingers in their ears when the basic theory is laid down.

The reason everyone's so pissed about this video and others like it is because it actually explains nothing, and simply says 'it's OK to use, also turbosmart is great, all BOVs arent created equal, turbosmart is my favorite, by the way turbosmart turbosmart turbosmart, heres a dyno sheet, turbosmart'.

I'm not an expert on the base or Si models, so I'll have to leave that one to @D-RobIMW.

However, on the R, the problem is a little bit more significant. The Type R uses a Bosch ECU that has an extremely sensitive but significantly more accurate airflow model. It uses the pressures inside of the charge pipes (both boost pressure before the throttle plate and manifold pressure after the throttle plate) in combination with the MAF sensor to determine exactly how much air is flowing into the cylinders themselves rather than just measuring overall engine flow at the intake.

If air is released from the charge pipes, the calculations will assume that air flowed into the cylinder and will artificially modify the air charge. Almost every table on the Type R has an air charge index, meaning most of the engine's targets will now be incorrect. Fuel mass, ignition, cam angles, volumetric efficiency, injector phasing, knock retard are all looked up by air charge. This is wildly different from other Honda ECUs.

Part of the reason why the Type R has seemingly the most reliable engine out of any Honda ever made is because the ECU is targeting things much more precisely and compensating for all kinds of variables while it does it. This is also why we can add almost any part to an R and we don’t need to tune for it to work properly. Adding a BOV may be harmless, but it most certainly has an effect on these ECUs.

https://fk8.wiki/Hondata_Tuning_Guide#Air_charge_model

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[edgeautosport.com]

@kefi appreciate the response very much. That tuning page you have looks awesome. Alan, our tuner over here is probably pretty caught up on this but I'll definitely check it out as it looks like a good read in general. I'll link him to it too as I'm sure he would like to check it out.

I appreciate your thoughts on my post. When you say it has an effect on the ECU, there's no doubt. But you could say the same for all the platforms I mentioned. Where I'm personally limited is the actual referencing being done because I'm just not a tuner. But I understand it at a high level. I know different cars reference different tables in order to calculate what needs to happen with fuel and such. Alan's not in today but I'm going to bring this up with him next week and just see what he says.

What have you seen in your experience that actually materializes as a problem when you run a BOV whether it's a certain CEL or the car running a certain way? (I'm assuming you're a tuner of other people's cars, as well??) We've tuned a handful of 10th gen Honda stuff, but it's not our bread and butter (at least at this point) and we're always eager to learn more. Just curious what you've actually seen with the BOV vented.

EDIT: Clearly, you're a remote tuner. I should have clicked around first. Sorry, I just don't hang out in the forum too often.

 

[edgeautosport.com]

By the way, you keep using the word "hysteria" in regards to folks who say not to use BOV's. It just so happens that the majority of folks don't think they're a good idea. How is that hysteria?

You even said in your post that adding a VTA BOV isn't the best way to set up your car. That it's a style and sound thing. And I totally agree. What the 10th gen pros are saying is err on the side of caution and get your sound from a CAI instead.

I'm just referring to everyone that makes it sounds like a bigger deal than it is. That's all. People seem to lose their mind over a BOV discussion. I totally get it, BOVs are sort of an annoying conversation to have to everyone that isn't on day 1 of their modding life. I've just never seen it be this big of a deal in any other platform I've been a part of, which is a small handful. Even though any professional in any platform would tell you it's not the right way to do it, many 10th gen civic people just really get amped about it.

 

[kefi]

.
What have you seen in your experience that actually materializes as a problem when you run a BOV whether it's a certain CEL or the car running a certain way? (I'm assuming you're a tuner of other people's cars, as well??) We've tuned a handful of 10th gen Honda stuff, but it's not our bread and butter (at least at this point) and we're always eager to learn more. Just curious what you've actually seen with the BOV vented.

Yes, I professionally tune them for others as well.

It doesn’t present any issue that you can easily see. The targets will all be correct for that incorrect air charge, but nothing can easily tell you that the air charge itself is incorrect other than fuel trims being off, which is something that could be caused by a number of things.

The problem with the R is that because everything is so dynamic and calculated on the fly, it’s very very difficult to determine what is actually influencing air charge and all the values that depend on it. It’s difficult to even accurately (scientific method style) determine how much power a part adds or takes away. This is partly why you see Rs making all kinds of different numbers on the dyno.

An R will work even if the air charge calculations are horribly off, i.e from the MAF sensor being maxed out from a big turbo. You’ll see the air charge wildly fluctuate by 20-40% which is a huge difference. Tuners right now say screw it on big turbos because we have no better option being that there’s no larger MAF housing available. The additional reliability from the Bosch strategies is significantly reduced, but it still ‘works’. You have to remember that when turbos first became popular but before manufacturers used them, we were jury rigging everything and it still ‘worked’ then.

It’s a matter of how much the ECU is able to do in order to improve precision and reliability. Will it work without those strategies or when those strategies are affected? Sure. But you’re blinding the ECU and hoping for the best.

 

[kytos]

I apreciate all the educated and educative responses. It's very important to inform people what's happening behind the scenes on their ECU/engine when they put a BOV on their car and why it's a good or bad idea. Telling people that running a BOV is fine, that these modern ECU's will take it like nothing, is not the right thing. People should be informed and they will do whatever they want.

 

[gtman]

I'm just referring to everyone that makes it sounds like a bigger deal than it is. That's all. People seem to lose their mind over a BOV discussion. I totally get it, BOVs are sort of an annoying conversation to have to everyone that isn't on day 1 of their modding life. I've just never seen it be this big of a deal in any other platform I've been a part of, which is a small handful. Even though any professional in any platform would tell you it's not the right way to do it, many 10th gen civic people just really get amped about it.

I guess because the tune thread I run is trying to document tuning reliability, I tend to look at the long term effects. Sure you get the instant thrills from the sound but a few years later when you might be shelling out for a new catalytic converter that BOV doesn't seem quite as sweet.

But hey, I wouldn't stop anyone from adding one if that's what they want. It's their car and their money. They just need to know that along with the cool sounds there are potential long term issues at play. And maybe it will just amount to some fouled spark plugs down the road or something.

 

[kytos]

Sure you get the instant thrills from the sound but a few years later when you might be shelling out for a new catalytic converter that BOV doesn't seem quite as sweet.

But hey, I wouldn't stop anyone from adding one if that's what they want. It's their car and their money. They just need to know that along with the cool sounds there are potential long term issues at play. And maybe it will just amount to some fouled spark plugs down the road or something.

I think a stock car with an ecu that runs at closed loop all the time will have few or none issues IMO (other than fuel trims increased). When you tune a car you don't want a device that will later "detune" the ECU, right? Further on, Overboost and overrich conditions at WOT on a tuned engine is not something everyone is looking for, and I've seen that with my eyes on European ECU's. Let's say you pay Drob, expert on this platform, to fine tune your engine, then you add a device that will "detune" the ECU at certain conditions, that sounds bizarre for me.

 

[kefi]

It’s not much different from antilag. I’ll turn it on for a customer, but I will always inform them of the what, why, and how. It’s dangerous, but it is their car and I won’t foam at the mouth for someone using it or using a BOV. I use antilag myself.

It’s about educating the customer so they can make their own choice, not blindly telling them it’s OK like Bisimotos video did and saying nothing more than “these newer ECUs use MAF+MAP so you’re fine”

 

[gtman]

Exactly. It's all about the pros and cons and weighing your options in an informed way. For example, cold air intakes are awesome but if you live in an area prone to flooding, they can become a genuine risk. Same with tuning. You have to get into it knowing that you've likely voided your powertrain warranty. It's about how someone views risk/reward.

What bothers me when I see something like the original video in this thread is we're presented with BOV's being all reward and no risk. That's simply not truthfully laying out all the facts, good and bad.

 

[Type_RawR]

Welp, I run an HKS vta on my 2018, it's been on there for just over 5k and I've had no issues...I also don't have a cat in my car anymore either so . To make it clear I did in fact research this issue on these forums and the internet at large before I bought the HKS kit. Before I put it in I ran the car on hondatas "stock" tune that comes with the software then I ran it again using a 93 octane tune with improved throttle response. I must say I didn't bother to log anything I just watched the AFR meter on the head unit when I would shift and the car was running rich between shifts with the 93 octane tune before I even put the HKS kit on so what's it really matter if the AFR runs 13.6 or 13.8. Rich is rich and from what I've seen on the hondata software in my head unit the car is constantly doing a balancing act while you're driving anyways and it really only settles down when you're cruising. My anecdotal experience hasn't been negative in anyway so meh...I'll leave it on there until it becomes a problem, my 0.2.

 

[dallasjhawk]

i am done with you @dallasjhawk

i am done with you @dallasjhawk

Dude, Bisi is so full of it. He knows he isnt tuning with MAP and the Ecu isnt either. Those clowns asking for the proof of rich conditions know I cant post pictures there. So if someone wants to link them for them to come here feel free haha.

 

[dallasjhawk]

Oh and in case Bisi or any of his minions make it here. He asked me for a log of me driving, well here. no pegging rich -20 or worse STFT on throttle let off with a factory valve in like his car did in the test with a valve. Multiple WOT with throttle let off as well as come cruise with throttle blips where the a BOV would vent.

Here is me WOT

and the immediate let off 0% throttle no pegged rich STFT

 

[Myx]

Dude, Bisi is so full of it. He knows he isnt tuning with MAP and the Ecu isnt either. Those clowns asking for the proof of rich conditions know I cant post pictures there. So if someone wants to link them for them to come here feel free haha.

Well, these graphs/charts are pretty convincing. Thanks for digging these up and reposting.

 

[dallasjhawk]

Well, these graphs/charts are pretty convincing. Thanks for digging these up and reposting.

No problem. I even ran brand new logs with my stock valve this weekend since Bisi wanted it. I know he wont respond though because he could never be wrong.....

 

[KingOfBrussels]

All this talk about BOVs when we should be talking about whether the available upgraded BPVs are a performance upgrade. Forge Motorsport and Boomba both make full recirculating BPVs. There's absolutely no need for a BOV that vents to atmosphere but there could be a use for an upgraded BPV.

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