OE 2020+ cooling on track - more data

[Lust]

People need to stop thinking the radiator is the problem. It's not. The factory one is more than capable of doing the job.

The problem is there is zero air flow going to the radiator in the first place. A radiator entirely works on air movement. Putting a bigger radiator into a spot that does not flow will only make your wallet lighter and little more.

People need to also critically analyse what they buy. Just because a company makes it, does not mean it's going to work.

The problem with the oil cooler is that it is also drastically undersized. I came from the 370z world where overheating was a track day issue also. An oil cooler the size they sell for the civic does literally nothing on the 370. Granted, the 370 has two extra cylinders, but it does not have a turbo that hit's 1000F. But for an oil cooler to work on the 370, it was drastically bigger than the shitty little HKS unit. Anything the size of the HKS unit did nothing on that car and it had better front airflow than the CTR.

The issue is the front bumper is shit. Putting an oil cooler behind the fake side vents is not sufficient.

Lol stock radiator is sufficient? Yea okay.

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[ApexEight]

The stock restrictive exhaust side of the turbo is a big part of the issue ?️

 

[seselectronics]

The main problem of the car is the air flow going trough the radiator, but that is not the only problem.

The car is amazing the way it is, for be a production car and how it performs for the price range/performance.

This is what you could do for improve the cooling efficiency regarding the water temps (radiator) and intake temps, all is in relation I will try to describe in order .

*Intake temps :

I would wrap intake box , maf tubbing, maf hoses , charge pipe, inlet pipe ( if you have a two pieces design, one bolted on the turbo housing and separated by a silicone join) you could wrap the middle section , but again hast to be separated otherwise if you wrapped it will be worse.

The heat soak of the intake cause to the motor loose power due the high temperature on the intake and the motor has to run less boost and lower ignition timing , the volumetric efficiency is worse producing less power. This also make the intercooler get hot and because the intercooler is on top of the condenser and the condenser is also on top of the radiator we have two elements transfer heat to the radiator, that's why this is related to the higher ECT on track.

*Intercooler:

I would choose any intercooler bar and plate, because these intercooler performs much better than a tube and fins regarding the heat sack for the design.
It is true the bar and plate design block more the air flow to the radiator? yes it does, but the difference are not too different from a tube and fins , this will block the air flow anyways and will be worse because the heat transfer will be mayor than a bar and plate design. When a tube and fins could be better? when you have a dedicated ducting for the intercooler and not a sandwich configuration like we have in the OEM type R. Also if you do track the bar and plate is more robust for the debris at high speeds the most minimal small rock can be like a bullet and make easily a hole.

*Bigger front grille, it definitely helps improving the air flow trough the radiator.

*High flow downpipe, front pipe and full exhaust.

improving the exhaust flow it will be improving the thermal efficiency due the faster evacuation of the hot gases from the combustion chamber at long term, specially on the track.
Heat wrapping all the exhaust components. This includes Turbo (blanket) downpipe and front pipe.
Heat wrapping the turbo and downpipe will helps lowering the radiator temps, and intake temps, due the location right behind of the radiator transferring all the heat from those components. Heat wrapping the front pipe it will helps to prevents heat transfer to the oil pan , the front pipe run exactly under the motor getting higher oil temperatures.

*Large capacity radiator
This does not solve the problem, but it does helps improving the water volume capacity it will take more time to reach higher temperatures, so probably you can be more time on the track but once it hits certain temps level if the air flow is not enough the problem will persist.

*Oil cooler,
This option is really like something you must do if you are planning to do track, the Type R already has an oil cooler but is a block like the transmission cooler and depends of the water temperature, so obviously because the water temp can't keep it up you can't rely on this.
Lower oil temperatures the block will be cooler and the water will be lower temp also.


*Vented hood.
It does helps, I just posted at the last one due the prices and it will change the aesthetical of the car, not all the people are willing to modify the look.


There are more tricks and mods for improve the performance and prevent the heat soak , just not the most cheap or easy mods, including replacing the turbo.

This tips not just will keep you more time on the track also will keep the power more consistent.

 

[jmark]

I would look to the TC Type R race cars for clues. They run a vented hood for example.

https://www.tcamerica.us/gallery?page_num=2#photo-21

 

[fatherpain]

Yes that is the ICB/J’s Racing hood. Same as this

Varis also has a nice hood that should perform similarly

I would look to the TC Type R race cars for clues. They run a vented hood for example.

https://www.tcamerica.us/gallery?page_num=2#photo-21

 

[Lust]

I would look to the TC Type R race cars for clues. They run a vented hood for example.

https://www.tcamerica.us/gallery?page_num=2#photo-21

TC cars are outfitted with majority of OTS aftermarket parts. Js hood, Js grill, 52mm CSF rad, stock IC, and AC delete.

 

[Lust]

Airflow is a problem but it isn’t the main problem. Simply put, the CTR generates more heat than what the cooling system can keep up with. You can have all of the air you want traveling through the stock radiator and still overheat. Just look at all of the cars with open grills and stock rads or even koyorads still overheat.

Bar and plate intercoolers run hotter on track. They’re not good for prolonged circuit use because they don’t shed heat consistently. F1 is the pinnacle of motorsports and they use extruded tube and fin intercoolers. Also a bit counterintuitive that you say airflow is a problem yet advocate for huge bar and plate intercoolers that have terrible flow.

The main problem of the car is the air flow going trough the radiator, but that is not the only problem.

The car is amazing the way it is, for be a production car and how it performs for the price range/performance.

This is what you could do for improve the cooling efficiency regarding the water temps (radiator) and intake temps, all is in relation I will try to describe in order .

*Intake temps :

I would wrap intake box , maf tubbing, maf hoses , charge pipe, inlet pipe ( if you have a two pieces design, one bolted on the turbo housing and separated by a silicone join) you could wrap the middle section , but again hast to be separated otherwise if you wrapped it will be worse.

The heat soak of the intake cause to the motor loose power due the high temperature on the intake and the motor has to run less boost and lower ignition timing , the volumetric efficiency is worse producing less power. This also make the intercooler get hot and because the intercooler is on top of the condenser and the condenser is also on top of the radiator we have two elements transfer heat to the radiator, that's why this is related to the higher ECT on track.

*Intercooler:

I would choose any intercooler bar and plate, because these intercooler performs much better than a tube and fins regarding the heat sack for the design.
It is true the bar and plate design block more the air flow to the radiator? yes it does, but the difference are not too different from a tube and fins , this will block the air flow anyways and will be worse because the heat transfer will be mayor than a bar and plate design. When a tube and fins could be better? when you have a dedicated ducting for the intercooler and not a sandwich configuration like we have in the OEM type R. Also if you do track the bar and plate is more robust for the debris at high speeds the most minimal small rock can be like a bullet and make easily a hole.

*Bigger front grille, it definitely helps improving the air flow trough the radiator.

*High flow downpipe, front pipe and full exhaust.

improving the exhaust flow it will be improving the thermal efficiency due the faster evacuation of the hot gases from the combustion chamber at long term, specially on the track.
Heat wrapping all the exhaust components. This includes Turbo (blanket) downpipe and front pipe.
Heat wrapping the turbo and downpipe will helps lowering the radiator temps, and intake temps, due the location right behind of the radiator transferring all the heat from those components. Heat wrapping the front pipe it will helps to prevents heat transfer to the oil pan , the front pipe run exactly under the motor getting higher oil temperatures.

*Large capacity radiator
This does not solve the problem, but it does helps improving the water volume capacity it will take more time to reach higher temperatures, so probably you can be more time on the track but once it hits certain temps level if the air flow is not enough the problem will persist.

*Oil cooler,
This option is really like something you must do if you are planning to do track, the Type R already has an oil cooler but is a block like the transmission cooler and depends of the water temperature, so obviously because the water temp can't keep it up you can't rely on this.
Lower oil temperatures the block will be cooler and the water will be lower temp also.


*Vented hood.
It does helps, I just posted at the last one due the prices and it will change the aesthetical of the car, not all the people are willing to modify the look.


There are more tricks and mods for improve the performance and prevent the heat soak , just not the most cheap or easy mods, including replacing the turbo.

This tips not just will keep you more time on the track also will keep the power more consistent.

 

[seselectronics]

Airflow is a problem but it isn’t the main problem. Simply put, the CTR generates more heat than what the cooling system can keep up with. You can have all of the air you want traveling through the stock radiator and still overheat. Just look at all of the cars with open grills and stock rads or even koyorads still overheat.

Bar and plate intercoolers run hotter on track. They’re not good for prolonged circuit use because they don’t shed heat consistently. F1 is the pinnacle of motorsports and they use extruded tube and fin intercoolers. Also a bit counterintuitive that you say airflow is a problem yet advocate for huge bar and plate intercoolers that have terrible flow.

If you read what I wrote I specify all the components who are making the car overheat at the track is not only one.

Bar and plate intercooler run cooler on track, there is thons of data proving this , tube and fins are cheaper and easier to manufacture.
When I referring to bar and plate is better for this platform I'm referring to the OEM configuration (intercooler/ condenser/radiator) .
You mention F1 intercooler, all the high end cars and high ends motorsport use water to air intercooler, doesn't have nothing to do with air to air you are confused.

Regarding the air flow, the open grille goes on top of the intercooler , not on the bottom where the intercooler is located, if you really think after any intercooler (tube and fins) and an ac condenser the flow is going to radical change vs bar and plate you are wrong again.

And the last one if you want to call brands I remember someone swapped his radiator for C&R and the car still overheated on the track. And for other side there is a tons of people using Koyo with no overheating issues at all.

 

[fatherpain]

The person I am aware was running the C&R Street version, not the Race radiator. He also didn’t have a oil cooler or vented hood or a lot of the other stuff.

His gauge maxed out during (1) of his laps and he shut it down that session to not risk going limp. Ambient temp was 103F.

I was able to complete all sessions with temp gauge @65% heater running the same day and track with the PWR Race with all the available cooling mods except the C&R oil cooler core upgrade at the time.

Was there a report of another person overheating with a C&R radiator?

I remember someone swapped his radiator for C&R and the car still overheated on the track.

 

[Lust]

If you read what I wrote I specify all the components who are making the car overheat at the track is not only one.

Bar and plate intercooler run cooler on track, there is thons of data proving this , tube and fins are cheaper and easier to manufacture.
When I referring to bar and plate is better for this platform I'm referring to the OEM configuration (intercooler/ condenser/radiator) .
You mention F1 intercooler, all the high end cars and high ends motorsport use water to air intercooler, doesn't have nothing to do with air to air you are confused.

Regarding the air flow, the open grille goes on top of the intercooler , not on the bottom where the intercooler is located, if you really think after any intercooler (tube and fins) and an ac condenser the flow is going to radical change vs bar and plate you are wrong again.

And the last one if you want to call brands I remember someone swapped his radiator for C&R and the car still overheated on the track. And for other side there is a tons of people using Koyo with no overheating issues at all.

Do you have evidence or data to support your claims?

 

[seselectronics]

The person I am aware was running the C&R Street version, not the Race radiator. He also didn’t have a oil cooler or vented hood.

His gauge maxed out on (1) lap and he shut it down to not risk going limp. Ambient temp was 103F.

I was able to complete all sessions with temp gauge @65% heater running the same day and track.

There is a lot of variables when you track the car, depending on the track, wheatear conditions, how was the grip , how you pushed that specific day, etc.


What I'm trying to explain without go out of topic the problem of the car is not just one, if you think just replacing the radiator for ''X'' brand or ''X'' version you will fix the issue when it won't.

You can have a stock 2020 Type R and just replace the radiator it won't do much, regardless brand, model or version.

 

[seselectronics]

Do you have evidence or data to support your claims?

Course I have data, and I'm not claiming anything lol, just providing information without trying to sell any product, I have experience with many brands, I can recommend brands, but the point of the post I believe is provide information regarding cooling of 2020 on track.

 

[fatherpain]

For what it’s worth, we were driving the same track, same day. Our times were similar. I was maybe 1-2 seconds faster due to better tires. About 1:31 laps.

103F ambient on slow Streets of Willow.

Won’t relist my cooling mods, but the other driver only had the C&R Street radiator and Greddy Intercooler on a 2020... so the grill was a little larger.

There is a lot of variables when you track the car, depending on the track, wheatear conditions, how was the grip , how you pushed that specific day, etc.


What I'm trying to explain without go out of topic the problem of the car is not just one, if you think just replacing the radiator for ''X'' brand or ''X'' version you will fix the issue when it won't.

You can have a stock 2020 Type R and just replace the radiator it won't do much, regardless brand, model or version.

 

[Dave B]

Interesting thought. First we wanted to prevent limp mode and the OP did not run in to that. OTOH, he did find that power dropped significantly. Are they governed differently i.e. limp mode is designed to prevent engine damage by keeping engine temps lower ( be they derived oil temps vs real water temps) but increasing IAT is the reason for the drop in power? Apex addict, do you have a good idea of the intake temp changes during your session?

If that is the case, we may to cool the engine as well as the IAT to get the car to be reliably fast on the track. A bigger intercooler may improve the latter at the expense of the former.

 

[looks.stock]

What is the part number for the OEM rear pads?

I’ve ordered a DS2500 for rear but I also want to keep a spare rear pads as well.

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