1.5T Non-Si sport model rod torque limit

Shingo_FK7

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Hey guys,

This is my first threat post on here although I’ve been a lurker for quite some time. I’ve seen a lot of discussion about the Rockwell hardness scale difference between the si connecting rods and the 1.5T connecting rods. I’ve been running a TSP stage 1 tune with full bolt ons on my 2019 sport hatchback for about 2,000 miles now and I’m planning on adding an e30 blend and a proper tune to the mix. Does anybody Have any definitive or even an average torque number for the limit of the stock rods? Planning to replace them anyway but it’d be nice to have even a little insight into failures in the non-si 1.5T models.

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adjusted miles to actual amount
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jayy_swish

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Rods should be fine with a basemap tune even with a flex fuel base map tune. It’s a custom tune you should worry about. I don’t have an indefinite answer, but I’m sure your stock clutch will slip and go out before a rod if it’s a manual. If it’s a CVT than your CVT will for sure go out before a rod, torque “conservative limit” is 250
 
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Shingo_FK7

Shingo_FK7

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Rods should be fine with a basemap tune even with a flex fuel base map tune. It’s a custom tune you should worry about. I don’t have an indefinite answer, but I’m sure your stock clutch will slip and go out before a rod if it’s a manual. If it’s a CVT than your CVT will for sure go out before a rod, torque “conservative limit” is 250
Thank you for the swift reply, it is a 6MT and I plan on waiting for a custom tune until all the parts I want to put on the car performance wise are on the car.
 

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Thank you for the swift reply, it is a 6MT and I plan on waiting for a custom tune until all the parts I want to put on the car performance wise are on the car.
My best advice is to work with a tuner that is familiar with this platform, even if that means to doing a remote e-tune as opposed to a local dyno tune. You can even do a remote dyno tune these days.
 

Pur3MotioN770

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No way of knowing for sure, but I can tell you this, I've only seen, or heard of a handful (3-4) of non Si's making, approaching, or exceeding 320 WTQ, and two of them (one made 320 WTQ the other 316 WTQ) suffered blown engines (threw rods), two others have drop-in turbo upgrades.

I've seen two non Si's make 300 WTQ, although one couldn't hold it because of stock clutch, and boost had to be turned down. The other car is the same car that ended up later upgrading to a drop-in turbo, so looks like his car lived a little while at 300 WTQ on the stock turbo.

My own car I would guess is making somewhere around 280-300 WTQ, but I'm not sure since I couldn't get a torque reading on the dyno, just got WHP reading (1st pull 237 WHP, 2nd 234 WHP). Other cars that make the same amount of power have dynod in the 280-300 WTQ area for reference.

Some other notes about the two cars that blew the engines. Both were running Hondata. One of them was a race car, pushed very hard by some team named Buckeye Honda Racing (ran E85), the other was tuned by Derftuned in Florida (was on E40 blend), and it was a daily for the owner. Both also blew up at or above 6K rpms. Buckeye said they were at 6300 bouncing off limiter. Other car was doing a 2nd gear WOT pull and at about 6k when it blew.

Florida car was a 2019, and it was tuned at 1k miles, and blew at 7.4k miles. The car was tuned a total of three times during those 6k miles.

First numbers were 252 WHP/277 WTQ @ approx 3.8k rpm, 2nd tune was 255/316WTQ @3.4k rpms after clutch upgrade, third tune after adding more parts was 268/300 WTQ.

I noticed on the last tune, the torque was changed from the previous tune, and was ramped in to come in later @4100-4300. I think some of the damage may have been done with the 2nd tune though, as the amount of torque down low (3.4k rpms) was probably too much. Part of me also believes that the newer models aren't built as good as the 2016-2018 models.

So with all that said, I personally wouldn't exceed 300 WTQ, and definitely wouldn't run Hondata. I'm not saying 300 WTQ is even safe, but my guess is it's close to the limit, if not the limit.. Other tips, leave antilag alone, stay away from blowoff valves, do not bounce off the rev limiter, try to avoid going WOT below 4k rpms especially in higher gears 3rd - 6th.
 
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jayy_swish

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Hondata wouldn’t matter though, it’s the aggressive tune and pushing the engine that killed it, not the device itself... But I do agree it is hard to tell. Even if you have two hatchback sports side by side, obviously with the same 1.5T engine, no 2 engines are built the same.
Engine 1 might be able to hold 330 tq and not blow,
While engine 2 has 315 tq and blows.
It’s just on how aggressive and how much strain you are putting on the engine. If you casually spirit drive the car here and there it will obviously last a lot longer than a car thats being put through WOT often bouncing off the rev limiter every chance you have
 
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Shingo_FK7

Shingo_FK7

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Thank you for all your input, I really appreciate it. I’ve read every post on BOV’s, WOT in the higher gears, and low rpm WOT. And there is controversy between hondata and Ktuner but after reading about the two platforms from various threads it seems to be mostly people screwing with the basemaps, or just people going to tuners that ignore any sort of torque limiting on the low end. I’m planning on getting a baseline dyno from either pfi speed or edge autosports here in Colorado. It’s my daily so I definitely don’t beat on it. Even during spirited drives I’ve never hit rev limiter and I don’t launch my car. After clutch replacement which is coming sometime this summer and an e30 blend I’ll talk to my local tuners and my main mechanic and see what they say about me either leaving my short block alone and just ordering the built short block from two step performance and some Brian Crower valve springs and retainers, or just change out the rods and notch the short block to fit it. Again, I appreciate the advice!
 

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As the keeper of the official CivicX tuning reliability survey, I wanted to chime in here a bit.

First in terms of KTuner versus Hondata. At CivicX it's not a contest as Ktuner is owned by 3 times as many non-Type R owner's. That's not to say Hondata isn't good (it is, I've owned one) and ultimately both essentially do the same thing. I think the difference is that KTuner has quite a few more easy to use user tweaks available.

As far as the rods, you've gotten some great answers already. It honestly boils down to the fact you can't tune to the 'enth degree. You have to leave some potential power on the table. Virtually all the failures we've seen come from cars with FBO and tuning that simply pushed things to far. Then the owner posts that "I was was going 20 mph and threw a rod". It's the accumulative effect of too much torque. As far as giving an exact number though, there is none. Bottom line: being a bit conservative is the smart play.

As far as a high power tune with a CVT, a number of members have done it successfully. For example, xjoshuax89 has a tune pushing 293whp / 257wtq on a e35 blend, safely. The key is working with someone like Derek Robinson who understands where to limit torque to protect the transmission.
 
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Pur3MotioN770

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When it comes to running ethanol on these cars, there are two different approaches, with Vit Viper and Derek Robinson (most respected tuners for the civic x platform), siding with Ktuner's setup, and way of handling ethanol, while advising against Hondata's approach.

Hondata recommends and encourages running full E85 on these cars, which they falsely claimed resulted in more power, while being safe, with cars running a very lean 13.0 AFR at WOT.

I'm not super knowledgeable about all this, so you'd have to talk to the experts for the complete details. What I've read though, is that Ktuner is setup to run Ethanol blends up to E40 (no benefit in going higher), and does so properly. Hondata on the other hand, is setup to run full E85, and while you can run a blend, it is not set up to do so, and does not have the same capabilities as Ktuner, and may not actually be safe as a result. In this case, no they do not do the same thing, and even in the hands of good tuner, there are limitations, and things out of their control.

There is a reason why majority of non Type R 10th Gen tuned cars, are on Ktuner, it is what is recommended by the experts. Hondata can be rigged to work, but it is in fact not as safe and less capable in certain areas.
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